Hi oz bargainers, i need a big favor from u guys. I m working in one of the nursing home in SA from 4 years. I got letter now from my work saying tht i was overpaid from the beginning. So they want money back now around $7500. 3 yrs ago, manager found payroll mistake n she yold me that i dont have to pay back overpaid amount bcoz it was not my mistake. Now they want me to pay back all money. What r the options for not to pay back which is not my mistake? Or do i really need to pay back???
Overpaid at Work for 4 Yrs, They Asked Now to Return
Comments
spend the money on spelling lessons
Thank you Pauline.
Have you verified how they have calculated the over payment and are you satisfied with the being correct? As someone suggested, explore legal aid to understand your rights.
If you do end up paying back, you could possibly request a payment plan to soften the blow over a period of time. I take it that you are still employed with the same place?
This is the responsibility of the manager who 3 years ago discovered this over-payment and allowed it to continue until now.
Yeah, but its essentially his word against theirs.
And their word can seem more reliable, as they say they only discovered the problem now.
And that it would be silly to give someone more money through a mistake, rather than, you know…. a RAISE.
Speak with someone with expertise in this area rather than relying on the opinions of folks on internet forums. Legal aid, as already mentioned, would be a good start.
Also don't forget, that if you've been overpaid for four years running, you will probably have over reported your income to the ATO (and therefore paid too much tax). Legal aid might be able to explain how to amend your prior tax returns, as you should be able to claim it back.
OzBargain advice > Professional advice.
Everytime.
Why do you think there's so many threads these days?Can I put "OzBargaineer" on my Business Card or CV next to Ear, Nose, Throat and Belly Button Specialist? lol
Actually, you can put "Dr holdenmg, Ozbarganeer" if you want. It's surprising which titles are restricted and which aren't when you look into it.
u shD rsk sum1 legle
If you belong to a union , contact them and they should look into this for you.
I provide advice as a full time Union official.
For wages recovery the rules are relatively simple, your former employer can recover the over payment (limitation is generally up to 6 years) on the proviso they have provided you with:
- Sufficient data to satisfy a reasonable person the debt is owed (rosters, payslips, award information, whatever data they used to make the original finding)
- A reasonable time to examine that data and query any inconsistencies. A lawyer won't help at this point,but an accountant might.
- Offer a payment plan that does not exceed 15% of your income AS WELL AS taking into account any financial hardship. (in some cases we have handled employees have retired and now on pensions so ability to re-pay was non-existent)
Generally speaking interest should not be charged, particularly where it is the employers error.
You must address the issue promptly but never agree that you owe any money until the data satisfies you that you owe it.You can consider requesting a waiver based on the time that has passed, and your financial position where your capacity to pay any debt is significantly impaired.
Don't answer the phone. Keep everything in writing - email is fine, but don't open the door to verbal exchanges. Check your bank accounts to see if what they say you got paid is in fact what you got paid.
Final piece of advice - please join a Union. This is exactly the kind of thing we can help with. Union dues generally cost less than 1% of your income and with pay increases around 2.5% membership pays for itself. Good Luck.
Final piece of advice - please join a Union. This is exactly the kind of thing we can help with. Union dues generally cost less than 1% of your income and with pay increases around 2.5% membership pays for itself.
heh. nice plug there.
so rl is a ~1.5% pay increase. it that yearly or over three year?
Varies from industry to industry, and on the activism of the employees. Some agreements allow for twice a year raises - I have occasionally even seen 3 monthly raises in cases where an agreement has fallen behind -
generally once or twice a year but cumulatively the same amount IE: 2x1.5% or 1x3.0.
And Union membership fees are tax deductable. Amazing the number of people who do not know this. As a former union representative in a school, I was often informed, "I can't afford to be a member." I would reply, "How can you not afford to be a member? If you want advice, or a question answered, ask the Union. They are always correct."
I've lost count of the amount of times I have argued with co workers who don't pay their fees.
They don't see the point of paying fees when they get the pay rises and conditions regardless. Even though our union negotiated an annual payrise of 4% for 3 years and fees are $700.
I always say you aren't paying for the payrise, it's like an insurance policy if things go south and if noone paid, you wouldn't have your 9 day fortnight and overtime rates.
you should check you awards for the three previous years. if you've been overpaid than you should/must pay it back.
you would do the same if they underpaid you.
If the OP would like to PM me - there is at least 2 conditions under which OP will not be obliged to pay a cent.
$7500
4 years
$1875/year
52 1/12 weeks/year
$36/week
5 days/week
$7.20/day
8 hours/day
$0.90/hourWhy would they even bother with such a small amount?
Assume salary hourly rate of $20/hour
4.5% overpayment
3 years
1.5%/year pay rate increase.Presumably salaries have increased by more than this. Was your hourly rate fixed over the 4 years? If it was it may turn out that they owe you.
$30/hour Administration staff salary
250 hours$100/hour Executive salary
75 hours$200/hour Lawyer charge out rate
37.5 hoursIf it goes before a Salaries Tribunal it could cost the employer more than they recover from you.
Note that this applies to you as well. If you engage a lawyer it wouldn't take very long before it is more expensive than paying up - if you have to of course.
https://www.sa.gov.au/topics/employment-money-taxes/employin…
Good luck!
Tax rates 2015–16
Taxable income Tax on this income
0 – $18,200 Nil
$18,201 – $37,000 19c for each $1 over $18,200
$37,001 – $80,000 $3,572 plus 32.5c for each $1 over $37,000
$80,001 – $180,000 $17,547 plus 37c for each $1 over $80,000I will use the same tax rate for the 4 years. For an "order of" calculation it's not worth looking up previous rates.
$20/hour
8 hours/day
$160/day
5 days/week
$800/week
52 1/12 weeks/year
$41,666/year
$37,000 tax step 2
$3572 tax step 2 payment
$4,666 amount in tax step 3
32.5% tax step 3 rate
$1517 tax step 3 payment
$6183/year tax$19.10/hour
$4479/year tax$609/year difference
4 years
$2437 tax refund
$7500 repayment requested
$5062 net amount due after tax refundIt amazes me how much difference $0.90/hour makes but here are the raw figures:
20 19.1
8 8
160 152.8
5 5
800 764
52 1/12 52 1/12
41666 2/3 39791 2/3 1875 4 75003572 3572
37000 37000
4666 2/3 2791 2/3
0.325 0.325
1516 2/3 907 7/24
5088 2/3 4479 7/24 609 3/8 4 2437 1/2 7500 5062 1/2re:1$0.90/hr - why would they bother with such a small amount?
That's why they waited 4 years, to make it worth recovering.
(btw. I think you mean $5089/year tax above rather than $6183/year)
You are correct. I have no idea where 6183 came from as the spreadsheet extract shows the correct figure. Never trust anyone typing figures; even / especially yourself. Always copy and paste.
The expected tax refund is still correct though.
$7500
$0.90/hour
Why would they even bother with such a small amount?reverse it and you can bet op would be on phone to the fac in two sec flat.
Say you spent it all on sms's
What r the options for not to pay back which is not my mistake? Or do i really need to pay back???
I don't mean to be rude, but can you write properly? It doesn't help your cause when you're writing like a 10 year old over SMS. If you can't construct proper sentences and write coherently, anybody you try to argue with will take you less seriously.
Secondly, 'it's not my mistake' is a pretty bad reason to not have to pay it back. Are you saying that just because you did nothing wrong that you are somehow entitled to keep the money? So if a bank accidentally deposits a million dollars into your account, you get to keep it? Obviously that's not the case. Again, people will take you much more seriously if you stop saying stupid things like 'do i really need to pay back???'.
Obviously I'm not aware of your individual circumstances and you may well have a very strong case, but the way you come across doesn't help your cause.
Perspective is needed though. English may not be the first language, which is likely from what I've seen with nursing home staff.
This one hinges on whether the received pay was more than documented on the award, or the award was wrong. If the latter, OP should keep the money as it could have led to commitments based on it. If the former, it should be repaid back on an agreed repayment schedule.
So, does this mean your Employer Superannuation Contributions based on your salary have also been overpaid?
And, while we are on it, has this overpay (if it occurred) ever pushed you into a higher tax bracket?
What a mess.
Let us know how it pans out.
They don't have to get the super back, as it's a minimum payment (in most cases), so will just be above minimum paid.
If the company insist on getting super payments back, they may find it more trouble than it's worth, as the access rules are so complex.
What the company should not do is demand cash or salary sacrifice repayment for the overpaid super amount. That would constitute a non-contracted super payment without the employee's permission, which I don't think is allowed…
Not mentioned but another point to consider is the implication of a fight with your employer on your employment prospects.
I don't mean "just accept that you owe the money and say nothing", more, always keep the discussion about this between you and the employer polite and businesslike.
Plus plus plus the advices above to make sure every contact is in writing.
Hope all goes well and this is sorted out so the process leaves you comfortable even if you do need to pay any back.
I formerly worked in Dept of Defence pay (public service, not armed forces).
Sometimes these things happen innocently (well, a tiny mistake anyway) and are discovered by another clerk years later. However it does need to be repaid.
What they cannot do is demand it quickly or in a lump sum. See if you can negotiate salary sacrificing it over many pays (which will also save you tax now). Just don't get snippy or abusive, or they may not be so friendly with their terms…
I never thought 7/11 owned Nursing Homes, but thanks for confirming that. lol
I don't think you should have to pay for it, maybe pay for the overpayment from this financial year but I would make a huge fuss about repaying anything prior.
I had a similar issue, though not going back 4 years but a few months instead. My argument was that the time I would need to spend correcting all the paperwork and following up on it would balance out the amount they were trying to recover. So, I asked them that given they have made a mistake, I was happy to repay them the funds, but I wanted them to compensate me for the mess I would have to go through. This was a reasonable request. I would make them pay you compensation to engage an accountant to fix all your tax returns, your immigration/Centrelink documents, super, etc etc. I would also make them issue you new payslips for each week/fortnight/month so that you can supply this as evidence. For me, in the end they decided to write it off as a loss from their end.
To be honest you should contact your state's employee body (eg fairwork) as I highly doubt you will need to pay 4 years worth of funds back, a year or so maybe.Why is it an overpayment? Incorrect wage? How they applied a penalty or shift allowance etc? As above ask for all this information, make sure they provide you everything you ask, including spreadsheets.
4 years is a long time for an overpayment! Once you know the reason for the alleged overpayment you can question whether the amount you have received is indeed an overpayment or has become part of your accepted wage. For example i am paid above the award and more than my written contract states, that does not mean however I have been overpaid.
Do you have anything in writing like a contract that specifically states how you will be paid? If so is the alleged overpayment clearly more that that figure or method of calculating your pay?
Are you intending to stay with your employer? If you don't pay it back they will probably have the option of seeking this payment in the small claims court, providing they have evidence to satisfy a judge. Leaving and not paying would make it hard to get a good reference from them too, something to think about. as above, see Legal Aid.
If it is a legit overpayment then why not offer to pay back a certain percentage, not the whole lot as part of compensation for the unwanted stress this has caused you for their mistake. It's worth asking the question at least. The company may not want to go down the hard road. $7500 is a lot to an employee who is probably paid at the relevant minimum wage, less so to a company.
Also check what your award or eba states about permitted deductions. Good luck
This reminds me, I was sent a letter from the manager of HR, earlier in the process, stating they would begin deducting $500 from my pay which was 1/3 of my salary. I sent them a response stating I do not authorise this until all pending issues have been resolved.
It funny as I had multiple pay issues with underpayment and I was advised there is nothing they can do as the issue lies with a third party system they are forced to use and all of a sudden when they overpaid me once, the manager of HR calls me for a personal chat offering to talk over a coffee. I told her to get f**d. Note my issues were with a recruitment agency and certainly wouldn't expect that sort of behaviour from an employer. I would be surprised if you need to go as far as I had to.Make sure you get everything in writing and stand your ground. This will help you in case there is any legal action or you get fired after the fact.
Agree that if you were overpaid for over 4 years it becomes part of your accepted wage (rightly or wrongly) and having to pay that back will have a significant impact on your annual budget.
Keep all your documents - Payslips, Employment Contracts and Certified Agreements.
Take it to an accredited specialist in Industrial and Employment Law and get legal advice.
Good Luck.
I would suggest contacting a lawyer or your local legal aid