What to do: ING DIRECT is to empty my account to cover up someone else' crime

enveloped on 17/12/2015 - 13:38
Last edited 17/12/2015 - 14:27

My family's ING DIRECT everyday transaction account is disabled and their Financial Crime team contacted me: my family's resell business' customer who paid us from ANZ bank, used stolen money. Since the money is stolen, we were never entitled to the money. In a couple of days, they will empty my account to pay the victim's lose in a couple of days.

There are 3 parties that are maybe at fault: 1) the original account owner (who has his account hijacked), 2) ANZ bank, 3) the hacker. I don't see myself playing any role in the crime. The reselling is legit, with ABN and prove of purchase and prove of goods. Is there anything I can do now?

The goods being discussed is Bitcoin and it is traded on localbitcoins.com (escrow service charing 1%) who already disabled the suspect's account under my request. ING DIRECT'S financial team reassured me that this has nothing to do with Bitcion - "whatever the goods he purchase, the money isn't yours. It happens a lot (with any goods)."

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Comments

  • enveloped on 17/12/2015 - 13:39

    I'm rather interesetd in what's the law's view on this. How can a business protect itself if it has to verify that the customers' every payment was not with stolen money? What's the law's view in this case? And I bought a used car from Manheim with that money, are they going to get that money out from Manheim's bank account? Manheim didn't verify if my money is stolen, why should I verify if my customer's money is stolen?

    But, after extensive Google search, it's not easy to find information regarding to receiving stolen money, thanks to the overwhelming amount of article addressing the other side: the victim who have his money stolen.

    • Diji1 on 17/12/2015 - 13:55

      By conducting a civil action against the party that stole the money or carrying insurance I imagine.

  • [Deactivated] on 17/12/2015 - 14:09

    If you're selling bitcoin on ebay and accepting paypal as payment for it, you're just asking for trouble, so really, there is a 4th party at fault here which is the seller. IF the buyer paid for your bitcoin with a hacked bank account, ANZ are within their rights to reclaim the money and it is up to you to reclaim the goods from the buyer, which being bitcoin is not going to happen (this isn't the fault of Bitcoin, just naive sellers).

    • enveloped on 17/12/2015 - 14:17

      Not using ebay and nothing to do with paypal. It was a direct inter-bank transfer. I added the following to the original post: "it is traded on localbitcoins.com who already disabled the suspect's account under my request. I'm a customer of localbitcions.com because they charge me for escrow transactions. " - sorry to introduce the 5th party, localbitcoins.

      Which part of your explanation remain valid with ebay and paypal out of the picture? Also ING direct was explicit about that their action has nothing to do with Bitcoin: it happens to any goods being dealt and they deal with such cases a lot (with the same routine of taking money out from recipient's account).

      • [Deactivated] on 17/12/2015 - 14:22

        LB is rife with the same type of fraud and is a minefield. Your only option is to accept cash deposits at a local bank branch. You can't accept cash in person because counterfeiters will dump their notes on you and you'll have them confiscated when depositing them to your account or spending them (plus the police will come looking for you too, even if innocent, it can be a hassle). You can't accept direct deposit from another bank account because of hacked accounts, like you've now experienced and you can't accept credit card for obvious reasons.

        Your only option is to contact and lodge a complaint with the police, but they won't really care either.

        TLDR ver - OP is (profanity).

  • oscargamer on 17/12/2015 - 15:05

    simple answer, but unfortunate…the money is not yours

    how you prevent it happening again is a different question

    • enveloped on 17/12/2015 - 16:59

      I'm interested in whether or not the money I spent, e.g. on groceries will be pursued too, because Woolworth is now holding some money that is not theirs. This doesn't sound logical, so I took a few hours to study the issue from wikipedia closely:

      Even when a party fraudulently conveys property to a Bona fide purchaser, that Bona fide purchaser will, depending on the laws of the relevant jurisdiction, take good (valid) title to the property despite the competing claims of the other party.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_fide_purchaser

      Or:

      In case of Bona Fide Purchase, equity refuses to intervene to preserve any rights held by the former beneficial owner of the property.

      That reads like "If I didn't know my customer is a criminal, i take title to the property".

  • fruit on 17/12/2015 - 15:48

    I don't get it? Are you selling bitcoins? If so, now I know the reason they only accept branch deposits and not bank transfers now.
    Make a police report, maybe nothing happens but worth a try.

  • oscargamer on 17/12/2015 - 17:25
    -2

    if you are relying on wikipedia for legal advice, you are a fool

    each and every country and state has different rules

    stop posting here and pay a solicitor for proper advice

  • [Deactivated] on 19/12/2015 - 21:23

    When selling bitcoin, only accept branch deposits or cash in hand (Bring a UV light).

    In the past I've been alright with selling bitcoins for bank transfer with someone who was reputable because they would be online each day and if someone broke into their account they would probably realise it and notify the admins ASAP as they probably have some bitcoins in escrow as well. If they didn't then it's almost definitely shady.

    What you need to find out is when the real seller would have realised their account was hacked and reported it, which should have blocked the account before you got scammed. (This should have been at least one day before you released it and had the money cleared in your bank account. In this time it would have been reasonable for the person who was hacked to report it, it's your job to find out if this happened or not.) Is there any chance the bitcoins are still in escrow (unreleased), in which case you'll get your bitcoins back and the cash just goes out from your family's ING account or did you release them already?

    I am also interested in how long ago was it since you released the bitcoins to the other party before you were notified by the financial crime team. If the crime occurred months ago, then I would be very suspicious about the timing and why the real seller didn't come forward. i.e. They might be complicit in the crime. You might also be able to get login activity to show the real seller was supposed to be active a lot up until the time of the crime, and therefore should be online and realised their account had been hacked.

    Another question would be: Did you sell to someone who had low/no feedback?

    Don't believe all everything that bitcoiners say, don't trust anything. This includes that person who claims they were hacked. Get the evidence and build a sequence of events/timeline. I say this because most people suspected and still suspect the huge bitcoin hacks were in fact inside jobs. One whom was recently arrested and charged.

    However, since you are technically running a money transfer service, you needed to follow the "Know Your Customer" & "Anti Money Laundering" rules. As to how much information you should have gathered about the customer and the level of care you should have taken, that I don't really know, and would probably be something to discuss with a solicitor.

    The best way forward is probably to find out what happened in detail (i.e. most of the things I mentioned above), and if you are still unable to find out the real cause, then really you need proper legal advice. I've read stories about people who were money mules and lost everything; I hope things don't turn out like this for you.

    • enveloped on 19/12/2015 - 22:23

      Thank you! I have been waiting for a post that means well and constructive, like yours.

      I am also interested in how long ago was it since you released the bitcoins to the other party before you were notified by the financial crime team.

      The event took place last month. The Bank froze my account about one month after.

      Is there any chance the bitcoins are still in escrow (unreleased), in which case you'll get your bitcoins back and the cash just goes out from your family's ING account or did you release them already?

      No longer in escrow. I already requested localbitcoins to suspend the customer's account, which they did - they further informed me that there are zero asset on the account.

      If the crime occurred months ago, then I would be very suspicious about the timing and why the real seller didn't come forward. i.e. They might be complicit in the crime. You might also be able to get login activity to show the real seller was supposed to be active a lot up until the time of the crime, and therefore should be online and realised their account had been hacked.

      That's a good hint! But it happend in chunks, maybe the real owner was too callus to notice. Once the first a few hands been dealt, I grew trusting him, so I kept dealing with him for 2 months, then he stopped; then, another month later this happened.

      Another question would be: Did you sell to someone who had low/no feedback?

      This one has more than a dozen successful trades.

      Don't believe all everything that bitcoiners say, don't trust anything. This includes that person who claims they were hacked. Get the evidence and build a sequence of events/timeline. I say this because most people suspected and still suspect the huge bitcoin hacks were in fact inside jobs. One whom was recently arrested and charged.

      This is useful, except that in this case, no bitcoiner said to me that they were hacked - the bank was told so and apparently believed.

      The usual fraud I had been defending against, was like this: bank transfer sender claims to a bank that that they mistyped the account ID, and bank happily helped them to correct it. Such errors are no longer mendable after 2 days, so I settle every transaction on the 3rd day. But this time it was not the usual type.

      I got an email back from a Sydney solicitor, a former college friend. He wasn't sure about banking sector but pointed out that even if it is stolen, the common law entitles stolen goods to the new owner if the new owner purchased it without notice of other claims to the goods. Following his advice on this, there is a BOS who may solve this as a dispute for free. I submitted the case to Financial Ombudsman Service.

      • [Deactivated] on 19/12/2015 - 23:39

        Hmm. I now suspect because of the three month time frame involved, that all the funds might have been from someone trying to wash their stolen funds. This is because a bank statement usually comes every 3-4 months, giving the scammer enough time to get away with their loot, whilst the victim is unaware during the whole timeframe.

        • enveloped on 10/01/2016 - 21:51

          I think your deduction must be right.

          Pity the Financial Crime department have little interest to solve the case, or they would have asked me more info like the IP address of the culprit, which I can refer to my escrow service to find out and reveal all my trading records and messages with the "customer" (culprit). In fact I am ready to do this for them if they ask.

  • frewer on 09/01/2016 - 02:42

    Interesting read. I hope something will work out for you. It's sucks, in a developed country like Au, to see the law is always behind tech.

    • enveloped on 10/01/2016 - 21:49

      Yes, it worked out this time, in the end. Thanks for caring about it:)

  • enveloped on 10/01/2016 - 21:45

    Hi. I just want to follow up on how it is successfullly resolved. Following the suggestion of a lawyer I filed the case with Autralia Ombudsman Service. AOS in turn asks the bank to solve the case with me first, and the bank resumed my access to my money.

    Detail: AOS asked the bank to solve it with me before 11th, next Monday. Last friday is the last working day before 11th, I got a phone call 8:30am and failing to answer it, another phone call 10:30am, saying thatavailable fund will be accessible by me. I accepted the resolution and later found I hasn't lost money.

    So the system works in the end.

  • frewer on 11/01/2016 - 02:08

    Awesome, common sense has prevailed. I like it how in Au we have Ombudsman services that has common sense. Im glad that I can call this country home.

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