Myki - Got Fine for Low Balance

LYousufEDGE on 16/10/2015 - 16:01
Last edited 17/10/2015 - 09:30 by 1 other user

Hi Ozbargainers.

On Friday I touched on at Broadmeadows Station, had like $3 left on the Myki card.
Touched off at Southern Cross Station without a problem.

Well I never evade fares, I always touch on and touch off.

Unfortunately today, soon after getting from Southern Cross Station, I took the tram which was actually in a free Zone.
My destination was just the next stop.

So long story short, I tried to touch on in the tram.
The machine declined my Myki card and there was no Myki top up machine in the tram.
Suddenly, in the next stop the authorized officer fined me. They told me to pay it on the spot.
I didn't, because I wanted to appeal, to waive of (fine).

It was my first ever fine in 4 years.

Basically, reason for posting is, I just want to ask for your help.
What should I write for waiving of the fine.
I always pay, touch on and touch off all the time.

Is there any chance for me, that they will waive it at all?
Thanks.

Have edited. For accuracy please refer to OP original post and answers.

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closed Comments

  • neil on 16/10/2015 - 16:05
    +1

    Your post doesn't make sense.

    If you are in the free zone, you don't require a valid ticket. So how were you fined?

    • YousufEDGE on 16/10/2015 - 16:10

      Sorry my stop was one or two stops outside from free Zone

      • neil on 16/10/2015 - 16:16

        OK, so you touched on a Broadmeadows and had $3. That would give you exactly 2 hours of travel time. I assume that you started this tram trip after the 2 hours thus costing $3.76. It seems you wouldn't have had enough money on your card to purchase another 2 hour Myki pass thus you didn't have a valid ticket.

        Also, there have never been machines on trams to top up Mykis. Only 7/11s, certain newsagents and train stations (and online).

        • YousufEDGE on 16/10/2015 - 16:19

          I am pretty sure from Broadmeadows to Southern Cross is 45 mins journey and I took the tram within 2 hours,because the tram I took was just outside the southern cross Station.

        • neil on 16/10/2015 - 16:21
          +1

          @YousufEDGE:

          If that is true then you would have had a valid ticket regardless of touching on/off. Check your ticket online to see the times you touched on.

          Also, you never need to touch off on a tram.

        • YousufEDGE on 16/10/2015 - 16:28

          @neil: I registered my card after I got fined will i be able to check the history before the registration with the above process you just told me?

        • neil on 16/10/2015 - 16:29

          @YousufEDGE:

          No harm in trying.

        • dazweeja on 18/10/2015 - 09:44

          @neil:

          Well, that's not strictly true. If you're whole journey is in zone 2 (actually in this case the overlap between zones 1 and 2), you'll get a cheaper fare if you touch off. For example, on the ends of the 75, 86, and 109 routes.

        • [Deactivated] on 18/10/2015 - 13:57

          @YousufEDGE:
          For your Myki history, try asking the ticket attendant at a station - pretty sure they can print it out.

        • ascorbic on 18/10/2015 - 15:02

          Your assumption isn't exactly true. In order to touch on, there is only one condition that must be met: a myki money balance of $0.00 or more. This is regardless of whether there is a myki pass or existing fare on the myki.

          According to the Fares and Ticketing Manual:

          A myki must be touched on and touched off for each journey in a passenger vehicle or entry to a designated area for which the myki is used, in accordance with the following paragraphs. [Paragraphs defining what 'each journey in a passenger vehicle or entry to a designated area' actually means for each mode of transport]

          So in order to have a valid fare for travel on the tram, YousufEDGE would have been required to touch on before or as soon as the tram had left the Free Tram Zone. It doesn't matter that there is a 2 hour fare on the card already. If there was already a valid fare on the card and the balance was at least $0.00, touch on would have been successful and there would be no additional charge. However, the balance was negative so at this point, travel is not valid outside the Free Tram Zone. Note that AOs can see where you last touched on.

          And one minor thing:

          That would give you exactly 2 hours of travel time.

          It can be more than 2 hours. The 2 hour time limit applies to boarding a service. You can get on a tram and touch on 1 hour 59 minutes after touch on and still have valid travel until the end of the line.

          Officially, this is worded as:

          Within the zone(s) covered by the product a customer may board any train, tram or bus before the expiry of the product even if the customer’s journey ends after the product’s expiry

          tl;dr: Balance < $0.00 means your myki is not valid for travel in all circumstances.

          Edit: Added tl;dr

        • neil on 18/10/2015 - 15:50

          @ascorbic:

          I can't recall where among the vast amount of FAQs and ticketing manuals but I believe you won't get fined (not a finable offense) for not touching on to each tram. E.G. I touch on at 1PM at Melb Uni on Tram 1, catch an 86 (no touch on) from Bourke St to Smith & Gertrude at 1:15PM. You are still carrying a valid 2 hour pass.

          In any case, that differs from the OPs case.

        • ascorbic on 18/10/2015 - 16:11

          @neil:

          Certainly for trains you only have to touch on when you enter the network (e.g it would be ridiculous to expect someone to touch off then back on again at Richmond when changing lines) but I'd be very cautious with trams as they have readers on board the vehicles. It almost certainly wouldn't matter if your balance is clearly positive (i.e. if you touch on, you would still have a $0.00 or more balance) but if your balance would have been below $0.00 at touch on (i.e. unsuccessful touch on - remember the fare is deducted at touch off or next touch on), I wouldn't assume the ticket is valid.

  • ChrisLevo on 16/10/2015 - 16:08
    +16

    You should get fined for lack of punctuation.

    Sorry sport, but I have real trouble following you; in fact, my head hurt when I tried to read it again.

    • YousufEDGE on 16/10/2015 - 16:13
      +1

      I am really sorry my stop was just outside the free Zone would probably one or two stops away. And I am actually at work really tensed that I got heavy fine. But wanted to ask someone with the same experience or close to it. That is why my post is not making sense because I can't figure out what to do.

  • currentfad on 16/10/2015 - 16:19
    +1

    Tldr; OP tried to tap on the tram, not realising that they had no more balance in their card. However the doors of the tram already closed or something and therefore could not get off. Then when they tried to get off at the next stop there were transit officers who attempted to fine OP on the spot.

    ->My attempt at translating these hieroglyphs.

    • YousufEDGE on 16/10/2015 - 16:21

      Exactly that is what happened.

      • neil on 16/10/2015 - 16:26

        There are at least 3 stops before the free tram zone ends going south, 2 north and loads going east from Southern Cross (at least a few minutes to exit free tram zone). Maybe OP got on somewhere else?

        Free Zone Map

        • YousufEDGE on 16/10/2015 - 16:32

          It has been years that I haven't travelled in trams just wanted to go for casual shift to South Melbourne closer to crown casino.

        • neil on 16/10/2015 - 16:50

          @YousufEDGE:

          Sure. It's a convoluted system however to go back to your original question, there really isn't any reason for them to waive the fine. You said yourself you had an insufficient balance for another 2 hour ticket when you touched on at Broadmeadows. You also rode 3 or 4 stops knowing your Myki hadn't touched on.

          That said, PTV have been withdrawing fines on court appeals but they can fine you even more if you lose.

        • YousufEDGE on 16/10/2015 - 16:53

          @neil: I can travel free for 2 hours since first touch on and off right?

        • neil on 16/10/2015 - 17:09
          +1

          @YousufEDGE:

          Your ticket is valid for 2 hours exactly since touch on. It's on the PTV site. There are also procedures to get the ticket reviewed etc. But first I'd check your statement online to see when you touched on and compare that to when you received your fine.

        • Olokun on 16/10/2015 - 17:16
          +2

          @neil:

          Does this not suggest otherwise?

          Negative myki money balances
          If a customer’s myki has a valid myki pass or other valid product and a negative myki money balance, the myki is not valid for travel or entry to designated areas in zones for which the myki pass or other product is valid until the myki money balance has been topped up to at least $0.0

          http://ptv.vic.gov.au/assets/PDFs/Vic-Fares-and-Ticketing-Ma…

        • YousufEDGE on 16/10/2015 - 17:16

          @neil: thanks for the info I am pretty sure it was within 2 hours they have worst system to be honest. I took train At 10.10am and reached at work around 11.20am I got fined between that.

        • [Deactivated] on 16/10/2015 - 17:21
          -2

          @YousufEDGE:

          Given that you did not touch on upon boarding the tram and travelled beyond the free tram zone, the authorised officers were correct in what they did, I'm afraid.

          The rules clearly stipulate that you must have a myki money balance of at least $0.00 to use that myki.

          As your myki money balance was below $0.00 after you touched off at Southern Cross (your balance would be -$0.76 at this point), your myki is not valid for your travel on that tram regardless of what fare had already been deducted from your myki .

        • YousufEDGE on 16/10/2015 - 17:27

          @KaptnKaos: I did try to touch on but it declined if their systems doesn't show I had genuine intention that I was not fare evader then their CCTV Camera can in trams well I will try to appeal for a wave off if they don't I will pay in installments. That is the best option for me. Anyways guys thanks for the information.

        • neil on 16/10/2015 - 17:30

          @KaptnKaos:

          Ah, so the $3 shown on the screen was the balance before charging the initial Broadmeadows to Southern cross trip?

        • [Deactivated] on 16/10/2015 - 17:38
          +3

          @neil:

          Correct.

          So,

          1. Balance at start of day: $3.00
          2. Trip from Broadmeadows to SCS: $3.76
          3. Balance as you exit SCS: -$0.76
            Note, because of negative balance myki is now invalid.
          4. Balance as you board tram at SCS: -$0.76
          5. Balance when you alighted 2 stops later: -$0.76

          OP was fined because of the negative balance at (4).

        • neil on 16/10/2015 - 17:42
          +1

          @KaptnKaos:

          Ah of course.

          So Broadmeadows is a zone 2 station. So you could potentially go to somewhere else in zone 2 for $2.76 and still have a valid fare when touching off. Because of that possibility you were able to touch on successfully.

        • Olokun on 16/10/2015 - 17:43

          @YousufEDGE:

          their systems doesn't show I had genuine intention that I was not fare evader then their CCTV Camera

          From the link I provided to appeal.

          If the department was to accept advice of honest mistake, ticketing law would be, for all intents and purposes, unenforceable. Fare evaders and people making an honest mistake would all need to be granted leniency. This would have a massive impact on the public purse and the honest fare paying passengers.

          If you have no previous offences just follow the appeals process and you will be fine.

          Just ensure that the letter contains:-

          1. facts only, even emotion out of it
          2. Attach your myki history, explain that you had just completed a valid journey
          3. You thought that the tram trip was also valid (due to 2 hour ticket)
          4. That you now understand that this was incorrect.
          5. You will ensure that your Myki will have a valid balance in future
          6. You request a caution in this instance
        • [Deactivated] on 16/10/2015 - 17:59
          -1

          @neil:

          Essentially, without adding further funds to their myki, the OP could've travelled anywhere by train within two hours, to either zone 1 or 2, as long as they didn't exit any station within that two hours.

        • Randxyz123 on 16/10/2015 - 18:23
          +1

          Firstly @neil: Can you please amend the post so it has punctuation? It is really hard to read….

          OP in the future can you take care with your posts (yes I understand you are upset about being fined but it is so bloody hard to read)

          OP: You KNEW you had like $3 left so why you didn't top up at Southern Cross is beyond me. If you were going to the casino it is a 10 minute walk so you didn't need to get a tram at all.

          You can try writing a letter in saying it is your first offence (in 4 years or ever ===> this makes a BIG difference ) and you were running late to work and while you understand it was the wrong thing to do you are hoping you can be excused on this occasion.

          This is why you use auto top up

        • Baysew on 17/10/2015 - 11:20

          @knick007:

          Can you please amend the post so it has punctuation? It is really hard to read….

          I have attempted this.
          However, please refer to OP's original post and answers,
          to ensure that rewrite hasn't changed what the OP actually meant to say.

      • [Deactivated] on 16/10/2015 - 17:29
        +2

        Hang on, I'm sure that all stops within 1 stop of the Southern Cross superstop (on Spencer St between Collins and Bourke Sts) are well within the free tram zone.

        From Southern Cross Station towards Docklands (west), all stops are within the free tram zone.

        From Southern Cross Station, all stops in Collins St and Bourke St (east) are within the free tram zone.

        From Southern Cross Station, all stops along Spencer St from SCS to La Trobe St (north) are within the free tram zone.

        From Southern Cross Station towards Crown Casino (south), the very next stop (located near the Flinders/Spencer St corner) is within the free tram zone and it is well signposted that that's where the free tram zone ends. And I'm not inclined to believe that you caught the tram here, because this stop is a fair distance from SCS.

        Crown Casino is the stop after this, and well outside of the free tram zone.

        As a public transport user, it is your responsibility to ensure that your myki is valid for travel. If your myki does not touch on for whatever reason, you must alight at the next stop.

        You actually travelled two stops, not one stop. You knew that your myki did not touch on at the SCS superstop and had every opportunity to alight at the Flinders St stop.

        You didn't, and got fined. That's fair.

        • YousufEDGE on 16/10/2015 - 17:42
          -1

          Isn't there a 50% of possibility that they wave it off with a warning since it was my first ever ptv offence?

        • [Deactivated] on 16/10/2015 - 17:48

          @YousufEDGE:

          I wouldn't be able to give any guarantees, but you can most certainly try. The only thing you'll have to lose is the cost of a few pieces of paper, printing, a little bit of your time and $0.70 for postage.

        • amkssg on 18/10/2015 - 17:43

          @YousufEDGE: Honestly, just wait for your Infringement Notice to arrive in the mail. Reason? Because you may not even get one.

          Ticket inspectors are employees of YarraTrams, not PTV. It's for PTV to decide if they want to send you a fine. Your infringement may get rejected by PTV, and you may never get a fine.

          So don't worry until you actually receive the fine.

  • ykwon10 on 16/10/2015 - 16:53

    OP, out of curiosity how much were you fined on the spot?

    • YousufEDGE on 16/10/2015 - 16:54

      75$ for on the spot but didn't pay it now I guess I will be fined 224$

      • ykwon10 on 16/10/2015 - 16:55
        -2

        OUCH! Should of checked the free tram zone map..

      • momov3 on 17/10/2015 - 17:01
        +1

        First time offence right? By all means, appeal the fine and ask nicely for an official warning. Explain exact story and apologise sincerely, alerting them to the fact you have never evaded before. 6 weeks ago, same thing happened with son. Scenario was different to yours and in his case involved him being asked to show low income health care card (he's a Uni student and can travel concession). In his case, Centrelink failed to post the renewal card on time after losing his renewal application The reposted card arrived the very day he went into Uni after he had left home. That very day the inspectors decided to board bus. (When !@# happens it happens) He did not have the image of the card on his Centrelink App on the smartphone. Serves him right, I guess, so they fined him , yes $224 since he had no money to pay on the spot. But inspector did say he had to do his duty and issue fine although he believed my son. Told him to sort it out with MYKI which we did. MYKI actually advised him to plead, and he got the fine waived but a warning instead which is on record. Only thing that was not so nice was after a long page letter explaining how Centrelink had messed up with his card and it was Centrelink who asked him to show photocopy of valid card while waiting for new card, it all went into the rubbish bin as far as MYKI is concerned. They still recorded it as a first time offence and he musn't be caught again or that one will be brought out - just like a first time speeding fine. It used to be that first time offences were issued official warnings on the spot, now they are getting tough and will actually issue a fine. But that does not mean you cannot plead first time offence in writing.

  • Olokun on 16/10/2015 - 17:08
    +3

    Just print out the transaction history showing the relevant touch on and touch off. Attach it to a letter of appeal and send it off. If it is your first offence and you write the letter correctly, you have a 99.99% chance of getting favorable outcome.

    http://economicdevelopment.vic.gov.au/transport/legislation/…

    • YousufEDGE on 16/10/2015 - 17:17
      +1

      Thanks for the information. Much appreciated.

    • Brouw3r on 16/10/2015 - 18:27
      +2

      If it is your first offence and you write the letter correctly

      That might be asking something.

      • Findo on 17/10/2015 - 21:15

        They might feel sorry for him and let him off because they can't understand him

  • momov3 on 17/10/2015 - 17:23

    Oops, to OP - I should have just told you to relax, because the fine letter you get in the mail has a 'clause', at the top that says if this is your first time MYKI offence, just fill in the Fine number, and repost to them to get an official warning. In fact it also mentions to not enclose any correspondence. However, we did enclose an explanation which they forwarded and was read. We know this because we got a reply saying the enclosed letter had been read by the officer. So no harm in enclosing an explanation if you want to. :) :) :)

  • RefusdClassification on 17/10/2015 - 23:41
    +3

    Another reason not to use the awful communal transport systems our country has. Do what the bogans do, drive a car.

    Enforcement officers get paid $100,000 a year to bully and harass people who just want to quietly get from place to place. There is too much bureaucracy is this nanny state.

    • momov3 on 18/10/2015 - 22:46

      $100,000? I am in the wrong profession. They didn't need a University degree to get paid that amount. I know grads who don't earn half that much.

  • RocketSwitch on 18/10/2015 - 00:04

    Accessibility is Myki's downfall, hopefully this is addressed in 2017.

    • [Deactivated] on 18/10/2015 - 01:19

      What's happening in 2017?

      • joshykins on 18/10/2015 - 01:30
        +3

        new iphone 7s

      • neil on 18/10/2015 - 01:52

        PTV is tendering companies to run the ticketing system. Some of the companies have run transport systems that have done things like using bank cards to tap on to PT.

        Doesn't necessarily mean they are going to do that with the Myki system.

        • momov3 on 18/10/2015 - 22:51

          I read this and it is an admission that MYKI is a total flop. I believe it is to be replaced after the $billions that was spent to create/implement. This was taxpayer funds. Victorian taxpayers. When will they ever learn? I also read that the current company (??) that created the MYKI flop are being considered to tender as well for the new ticketing system. We have not had MYKI for 10 years and it's already being dumped. Guess they will have to destroy all those cards like they did with the millions of unused printed MET cards.

  • hahaboy on 18/10/2015 - 11:32

    Contest it for sure. Good you didn't take their $75 money grab scheme. Myki ticket inspectors are money grabbing scum. It's common enough that the age wrote an article on it.

    http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/myki-fines-what-to-do-if-y…

    For first time offenses, they will usually let you off, if you write it up in email. If that fails, contest in court, as waiting lists and huge. By the time your case comes around, they have a discussion with you at court, and if it's not a clear and intentional breach, they usually let you off.

    • [Deactivated] on 18/10/2015 - 12:19
      +1

      Money grab is a mild way of putting it. This is more in the vein of extortion. Why not just fine you and explain your rights for contesting it? Offering you a lower fine is dodgy-as-f.

      Julian Burnside is doing pro bono work to fight this bullshit system.

      http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/the-war-on-myki-julian-bur…

      DO NOT PAY THESE FINES BEFORE SEEKING ADVICE.

  • ronnknee on 18/10/2015 - 15:01

    Does Myki offer auto-top up?

    • neil on 18/10/2015 - 15:51

      Yes, you can can set that up online. Have had that setup since Myki was rolled out. No worrying about amounts or anything.

      • ronnknee on 18/10/2015 - 15:56
        -2

        Then there's really no excuse for OP not to have sufficient funds.

        But I didn't register my card so I couldn't set up auto-top up online!

        Well then why didn't you??

        • neil on 18/10/2015 - 20:41

          Well possibly for those who don't use Myki often or those on fixed incomes it may not be viable.

          Auto-topup can be triggered once your balance goes below $10 and can be topped up a minimum of $10.

          Last year, I had to park in Carlton. I had no change and I noticed they had an app. Signed up, entered CC but then found out I can only load $10 or $20 (I think) at a time. Given the unlikelyhood of ever using the system again and having my money sit there, I went into a store and ended up getting change to feed the meter.

  • Hirolol on 18/10/2015 - 16:52

    Anyone in melbourne if you ever get a fine do not pay it.
    If its first offence just do as people havesaid and request a warning or plead with them.
    If not first offence then you can usually go to court and the judge will just tell you to plead guilty and bin the fine, while also putting you on a 'good behaviour type thing. (Eg dont get another fine in that 6months)

    • hahaboy on 19/10/2015 - 20:20

      does it show on your police record though?

  • 2bitbludger on 25/10/2015 - 17:12

    "Well I never evade fares, I always touch on and touch off.
    It was my first ever fine in 4 years.
    I always pay, touch on and touch off all the time."

    • YousufEDGE on 25/10/2015 - 17:35

      We got a bad a** over here from Oxford University double major in literature English. Thanks for the help you don't know which situation I was in on that day but thanks anyway. I laughed.

      • 2bitbludger on 25/10/2015 - 19:16

        I still hope we can be friends ok takito:)

  • SpendLess on 15/09/2016 - 20:50

    so did u get out of this fine in the end?
    got a fine today. I didnt tap off yesterday during that chaos with the accident at surrey hills
    thought i tapped on this morning but i actually tapped off from THE DAY BEFORE! went into negative a buck fitty to make things worse…
    anyways myki what a farked up system…

    • YousufEDGE on 15/09/2016 - 23:49
      +3

      Yes I did get out of the fine. I asked them to review my fine and provided them my myki transaction history by going online on the myki website. Ask them to review your fine tell them the whole condition if it is your first fine they will wave it off with an official warning. Good luck with it. I know how it feels unfortunately.

      • SpendLess on 16/09/2016 - 16:11

        Thanks for making time to reply to this old post

        • YousufEDGE on 16/09/2016 - 21:03

          Not a problem. I wish you good luck again hope you get out this situation soon. Thanks.

        • SpendLess on 02/12/2016 - 20:26

          @YousufEDGE:
          Lucky you. I have to go to court to contest this bs fine. Just got my letter today

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