OzLeeches on the rise?

Almost everyday, i hit up on this website, ever since my friend told me about it almost a year ago. As i regularly read through the comments on various, i've noticed more and more new members - if i had to guess, i'd say the total number of members has more than tripled since early this year.

I welcome our new members, but i am worried that in the same period of time, there has not been a corresponding rise in the number of "decent" deals posted.

And not only is there a reduction of contribution:leech ratio lately, the OZB etiquette of POS voting seems to have completely lost its grounds….

Take the clivepeeters Ipod deal - 3500 clicks, i'd say at least 500 purchases, probably more, had resulted in 80 positive votes??????

WTF?

May i correctly assume, that the 420+ ppl who purchased an ipod through that deal, and yet did not vote + on the deal, are the very same who do not contribute anything to OZB's repertoire of oz bargains?

Anyone who has posted before, would presumably understand the importance of using the voting system to thank the poster, and to help inform other members. Anyone who has posted before, and has taken up that ipod deal, would have voted POS and perhaps left a nice message for the poster in the ensuing discussion forum.

Does this mean then, that more than 80% of the members on this forum, have never contributed, and have no interest in giving credit to those who have helped them so?

I was lucky enough to purchase one in time, before the deal was pulled early due to overwhelming (read OZB) response. For all those who have contributed to ozb before and wanted that ipod, and yet missed out on the deal, i feel for you. My disdain is at those who never post, and yet never thank.

What do you think? How should we discourage leeching behaviour, and ensure the quality deals that ozbargainers have had the privilege to experience so far? Should we make the website more exclusive?

  1. Make deals with 10+ votes or more viewable only by members.
  2. Charge either $5 for membership, or require some sort of bargain contribution, or friend invitation to join.
  3. Somehow reward those who contribute.
  4. Somehow warn/ban leeches.

Comments

  • Not sure that this is really a concerning problem, but I do have to notice that a lot of people who post to the Find me a bargain thread never express any thanks or even mention if they've been able to find something, and I'm guessing its that same kind of attitude.

    You also have to remember the possible 'viral' power of some deals. A stand-out iPod deal is the kind of thing that a lot of people might pass on to their friends, who in turn would forward to their friends and so forth.

    I guess the underlying issue is more of a lack of courtesy, or online courtesy if that makes sense. In real life you can easily gauge if the person asking for help is interested in what you're saying and whether they'll then take that away and try it out, but if you go to Yahoo Answers I think a lot of people who try to give helpful advice often get no feedback or indication as to whether the person has even read what they wrote.

  • Valid points raised. There has mostly been negative feedback. Some would post comments to point out why it is not such a great deal.

    However, there are many silent voters, who look at a deal and put a + ve vote, without any comment. That is good too.

    As regards, 3500 clicks, I am not sure how clicks are measured. I personally would have visited that thread at least 10 times, as I was contributing to the tread. I had bought the iPod Nano 5g from OW for $118 after price match.

    So, not all clicks would amount to new visitors.
    Although it is a good thought to have some sort of special access in here. However, not having any barriers is a big reason for popularity of this forum. I personally took a long time to join as a member, as user ids and passwords put me off. I am sure there would be a few grateful visitors feeling the same.

    So what do the Mods say?

  • I think you're right about the "click count". It records every time the page is accessed, regardless of user or IP.

    I'm mostly concerned, that some day in the near future, we'll be at a point where all Epic deals will be instantly snatched up by mostly non-contributing, non-registered users, leaving those loyal and helpful "old" users in the cold.

    I want a system thats fair to both seasoned users, as well as those who wish to sign up, that's why the favourite idea of mine is to:

    1. Make deals with 10+ votes or more viewable only by members. (or 15, 20, open to discussion.)
  • +1

    The main issue with hiding deals >20 votes is that visitors won't know about the great deals and are less likely to join/contribute.

    On that note, if i went to a website like this and it said "you must be a member to access this page" - i would just turn away assuming i would have to enter credit card details etc. Kinda like torrent sites where they take you to a download page and then give you a sign up page.

    Finally - looking at my stats i'd technically be a leacher. I've posted 3-5 deals that have been published, and i reckon i've had 10-15 deleted because of duplicates (people being faster than me).

    IMHO the only issue is Reps posting crap when they need extra advertising. However, its kind of of fault(the users) for not voting them down when they post crap deals.

    • Good point. What about doing the opposite of that?

      Non-members can access the:
      1. Top 10 deals of the past 3 days
      2. And all deals more than 3 days old.

      This will ensure that everybody gets to see what OZB has to offer, as well as enjoy the best that OZB has to offer, but only registered users can see the most up to date deals.

      This would be kind of like signing up to Microsoft Technet, where you get all the latest things, but the good stuff get filtered into the public domain sooner or later.

    • And RE your status as a leecher, no you're not!

      If 100 people took up on your 3-5deals, then you "get to" enjoy 100 deals posted by fellow ozbargainers!

  • Yep. I agree.

  • +1

    The number of "clicks" shown on the deal pages are actually the number of times someone has clicked through to the linked site (i.e. to the merchant's page). But yes, it does not try ot count uniqueness of users or IP addresses. In my experience however, the actual number of sales is usually way less than the number of clicks. A lot of "window shoppers" here too!

    As of the suggested solutions, I think most of them will actually hamper the growth of OzBargain. This website gets to this scale (without advertising or any kind of marketing) because all the offers are pretty much free to all. Not to mention the very tagline of OzBargain is to share the bargains you found :)

    There is simply no exclusive club here.

    Make deals with 10+ votes or more viewable only by members.

    Actually how OzBargain works is that the popular ones will be made even more known by putting them onto the front page. Hiding the good bargains is never the intention of OzBargain.

    Charge either $5 for membership, or require some sort of bargain contribution, or friend invitation to join.

    Again. I don't want to promote some kind of exclusive club.

    Somehow reward those who contribute.

    We do run weekly competitions to reward whoever gets the most votes + one random prize winner. See Weekly Competition wiki page about it. Sorry not every one can get the prize.

    What other kind of rewards are you thinking of?

    Somehow warn/ban leeches.

    It is a bit difficult to detect the "leechers" unfortunately unless I am setting up OzBargain as a walled garden, which I do not intend to do. Maybe some friendly suggestions around the site to remind people that the reason they can enjoy all these bargains is because someone has contributed?

    At the end of the day, there are always spammers, trolls and leechers on all Internet communities, and leechers are probably my least concern.

    • Scotty,

      I think if you graph/month:

      1 - total votes/unique visitors

      2 - total comments/unique visitors

      This will probably remain a flat line. I don't see participation vs traffic reducing at all (conversion rate in OZB sense).

      QQQ

      • Sorry I didn't quite get your point. Well I can only say that the total number of comments and votes are proportional to traffic and unique visitors.

        But that's not the point. My point is that good bargains should be accessible to all. A leecher today might be a contributor tomorrow — you never know.

    • Thanks Scotty for a well explained reply. you've quite rightly looked at the issue from a greater perspective. Without hindering the growth of OZBargain, how about these ideas?

      A: "Non-members can access the:
      1. Top 10 deals of the past 3 days
      2. And all deals more than 2 days old.

      This will ensure that everybody gets to see what OZB has to offer, as well as enjoy the best that OZB has to offer, but only registered users can see the most up to date deals.

      This would be kind of like signing up to Microsoft Technet, where you get all the latest things, but the good stuff get filtered into the public domain sooner or later."

      B: Following from your idea of reminding people, maybe we could put a line of text under the title of all popular deals saying, e.g. "Ozbargain is a community website built on the contribution of its members. [LINK] Learn how to post [LINK]"

      I understand that spammers and trolls are a bigger concern, but i've always felt that you already have them under adequate control. And thus i'm proposing that we look into ways to encourage more and better contribution and discourage leeching behaviour.

      • This would be kind of like signing up to Microsoft Technet…

        That would be the model that I'm trying to avoid :)

        The closest solution that I can think of is limiting new deals to be accessed by only the members, so

        • They get notified about the new deals first before they get voted up and become available to all.
        • It becomes a hindrance to spammers as their dodgy deals won't even be made to public before getting removed.

        HOWEVER, it might not resolve your specific issue, i.e. early sold out on limited offers. Good merchants might become less willing to post, and it's a bit against the spirit of OzBargain. There's also search engine issue that I won't get into :P

        Some potential improvements that I am considering:

        • Submitter can mark certain deals as members only. If an submitter chose to do so, I guess I won't go against the will. It also opens the possibility of having merchants offering exclusive deals to OzBargain members (provided that it does not get copied to other similar websites, which I think is very likely to happen :)

        • Still, rewarding the contributors. I have plans for those if I can find time to implement them.

        • +1

          All your above suggestions are A++++, i'm in full support! Hope you find the time to implement them.

          I think i know what you mean by the search engine issue.

          I was able to access all the paid subscriber-only material on an electronics magazine website, as long as i searched for a certain page in google, and used the links off that page =P.

          they've fixed that after a year of my abuse lol.

        • Scotty, just be careful with the "member only deals". See my post above about 'torrent sites style signups'

          EDIT: re: rewarding the contributers - remember this isn't a user pays site. I dont think you should feel obliged to dig got gifts for people to post bargains. I think the usb's and other gifts 9289/shopping square have offered is way more than expected. The site has been built around a generous community, rather than trying to make money. The only thing i can think of is making us have the ability to see total rep gained over the life of the site. (i.e. on other sites your rep builds on post count, where rep could build on how many positive voted comments/deals they have acquired.

          • @Davo1111: Thanks for the comments. Yes I need some time to think through + more time to implement them.

            The "reputation index" would be something that's interesting to explore. What makes a person reputable and creditable? Not just the counts on bargains/comments contributed of course, but how do we use the votes properly to calculate that index? Also whether someone is reputable in computer related stuff should automatically become reputable in apparel and beauty products (probably not, but you never know!). I'll work them out sometime :)

            • @scotty: I think Ubank hinted, in the 10 for 10 deal, that they might want to contact you too :P

              But I guess you'll find out later, if they do try to contact you :)

            • @scotty: i was just thinking every time someone positivly comments your deal, or you post a deal where someone gives it a +1 your "rep index" could increase by 1. I wouldnt rely on the rep index for making purchases, more just a sign of whose been here for a while.
              It reminds me of other forums, once you get over 1000 posts you get more stars next to your name. But this way, you couldn't just spam commentss to get rep, people would actually have to pos vote you.

              I dunno, it was just an idea. I can see it working in some respects, not working in others

  • You all have valid points and I suppose no system would be entirely perfect for this current situation so it looks like we will have to take the good with the bad.

    Personally, I haven't contributed a bargain, however I do vote on bargains which I feel offer great value even if I can't get them due to being interstate. I also try and post an informative comment or even compliment someone on how well a bargain has been outlined and posted.

    My way of thinking is that if we continually encourage good behaviour and quality posting, it's more likely to be beneficial to the community.

    Seasons greetings, and heads up, when I do post my maiden bargain, it's going to knock your socks off.

    • +1

      Thanks to the contribution to the comments — those are the things that make OzBargain great (well, other than the spammy and trolling comments :)

      There is a wealth of knowledge out there — stores, brands, products, reviews, etc. I guess what interests me is how to build something that can use least effort (or some crowd soruced effort) to organise everything posted on OzBargain. Any CompSci PhD out there? :)

  • If the problem is a shortage of the number of “decent” deals posted, then I think we have to remember the real source of bargains and deals, which is the retailers, companies and websites out there that are creating these attractive offers. I'm sure there can always be changes in the real-world marketplace that affect how willing such companies are to offer good deals, and this may in some way be reflected in what we see on OzBargain.

    The question then, is how can we make sure more of the "decent" deals out there can be identified and submitted to Ozbargain?

    Here are some examples of what might help:

    • Look more closely at where people first heard about good deals (i.e. junk mail, spotted in-store, email, tv ad, radio ad etc) and perhaps also allow this information to be collected as an additional field when new deals are submitted. Obviously there will always be reps, but can we more closely monitor any of the other sources collaboratively?
    • Maintain a cooperative email address that subscribes to certain mailing lists and is monitored for potential bargain material.
    • Consider some sort of rewards program where positive deals earn points which can accumulate and be redeemed for items of value.
    • Those ideas are good inherentchoice although I'm not sure if the third one could work, because I'm not sure where Scotty can get heaps of goodies to put on offer?

      • Well I had the idea that it could be an arrangement with sponsors a bit like the current weekly prizes. Obviously it would need some planning and participation from willing sponsors, but it is just an idea that might be good to keep in mind.

  • kimmik, It is very disappointing when you post a deal and people dont vote. Would it be possible, when people click thru the link could a page come up like ozbargin directing you to blah site, please Vote Good Deal, Neg and then Need more info. This would remind the user to vote and if they are unable to to vote yes or no when they link thru they can select Need more info, in which they can change once they have investigated the deal. It would also be good if it actually restricts you from clicking thru if you dont choose an option.

    Was also thinking that there could be an option if you purchased the deal like will purchase the deal, wont purchase the deal.

    Hope that all makes sense
    Just my ideas anyway.
    HTH

    • There are people who click on the link but aren't members at the time. They can go to the link but cannot vote.

      But yeah, I've seen people replying that it was a good deal and they've partaken of it, without voting positive.

      Another issue is that not everyone knows how to vote. I've seen some people ask about it and thought about putting together a tutorial; but that'll have to wait till I have time.

  • I realise that foundit but you could also have an option Not an ozbargain member click here to join blah blah, a great way to get new members to join the fantastic ozbargain website.

    • Good point about people who might click through and forget about ozBargain and voting or leaving a comment. I know that other sites employ a bar or a frame to remind you to comment or vote, or so that you can easily return to the site.

      For example the google image result frame, or the Digg Bar as can be seen here:
      http://www.wolf-howl.com/wp-content/uploads/432009_82244-am.…

      I also wonder whether forcing links to open in a new window will have any affect on people returing to ozBargain after 'clicking through'?

      • It would also be very handy for browsing :)

        Having the back to OzBargain links at the top. Especially if it remembered what page you were on last (and what part of the page you were looking at).

  • Okay I had the idea to try implement the collaborative email that subscribes to different websites, by outputting the emails to RSS that displays on a wiki page.

    Please see the current trial here:
    http://www.ozbargain.com.au/wiki/playground:emailrss

    Anyone know of an email service besides Gmail that will output to RSS and not truncate the body? Also, if we agree that it would be good to continue with such a 'bargain monitor' what sites should it subsribe to?

    • Link on that page actually does not work. Not too sure about the Gmail to RSS feature…

      • I realised that I could use one of those disposable email services. Now the RSS gives links to read the email on the publicly visible site spambog, and the feed seems to include the bulk of the messages. If anyone reads this, feel free to subscribe the address to any relevant mailing lists.

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