Help with a PayPal issue.

MelbBargainChaser77 on 02/02/2015 - 00:39

Hi OzBairgainers, Im in a bit of a pickle atm, I recently sold a gift card I had advertised on Gumtree. The buyer paid me into my paypal (Over $500) and has subsequently spent the gift card (I kept a copy of the gift card number and pin). I met up with the buyer at a petrol station, half an hour after he paid me into my paypal and gave him the gift card, he checked the balance and all all was good. 3 days after the transaction took place, the buyer has subsequently lodged an unauthorised transaction with paypal. Paylpal emailed me of this and told me this :

Recently, PayPal received a notification from a user regarding unauthorised access to his PayPal account. As a result, one of the payments credited to your PayPal account has been placed in a temporary hold while we investigate the claim. PayPal constantly monitors transactions for unauthorised use of accounts in order to maintain the safety of our users.

I had already withdrawn the payment into my bank account, and my paypal account now shows this balance as a negative on my account.

When I called paypal they told me Im not protected as it was a gift card, and they told me to go to the police.

I went to the police, and as far as they are concerned their is nothing to look at. I supplied the product and I was paid, end of story they said.

Why is paypal chasing me for this? Isnt the account holder responsible for transactions on their account? Why are they threatening to recover this money from me? Ive already handed over the gift card to the purchaser and its been spent.

I should have noted the number plate and ID of the buyer but stupidly I didnt. All I have is his phone number, and surprise surprise they arent now responding to me.

Does anyone have a similar experience? I refuse to pay back the amount. Can paypal take the funds from my linked bank account/ credit cards automatically or do I need to approve this action first? I dont understand why they arent telling the buyer action from their account is their responsibility, I didnt make them send me the money

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Comments

        • Charity on 05/02/2015 - 12:46
          -2

          @brazen00: you may be right… maybe it won't help.
          But we can't be 100% sure when information is intentionally censored.

        • brazen00 on 05/02/2015 - 13:01
          +2

          @Son ofa Zombie: My view on this is that disclosing the person's race is as useful here as disclosing their weight, eye colour, shoe size, etc.

        • Wyzard on 05/02/2015 - 13:36
          +3

          @Son ofa Zombie: +12 feedback is most likely for the pretty cool story and nothing to do whether race was or was not mentioned… And not 'maybe'. Brazen is right. It won't help… unless you can explain how revealing this person's race can help others avoid a scam?

        • Charity on 05/02/2015 - 17:53
          -6

          @Wyzard: His "pretty cool story" was about race, and the lesson he learnt of not dealing with that undisclosed race again. It was about 10 comments ago, but seriously, how did your brain forget? I guess that's why u hate my comment requesting more info. wow, it must be nice to be so incurious.

        • Wyzard on 05/02/2015 - 18:17

          @Son ofa Zombie: I agree that he is inferring a certain race are all fraudsters which I disagree with but pretty sure his story was more about:

          Bottom line (regardless of buyer/scammer's race)

          1) Don't do pickups
          2) Dont' do local deliveries yourself even with getting it signed.. it has to be a third party courier with sign.
          3) Don't accept ebay addresses unless the address is the same as the paypal registered address
          4) Cash is King.

          And again, how does revealing the race help others avoid a scam?

        • Wyzard on 05/02/2015 - 18:18

          edit dup.

        • Charity on 05/02/2015 - 18:50
          -1

          @Wyzard:
          the same way the govt does "ethnic profiling."

        • Wyzard on 05/02/2015 - 20:43
          -1

          @Son ofa Zombie: And I suppose you agree with racial profiling? wow, it must be nice to be so ignorant.

        • Baysew on 05/02/2015 - 21:21

          @Wyzard: Human race.

        • wchau on 06/02/2015 - 08:33
          +1

          Obviously its not EVERYONE in that race don't get me wrong,

          From MY experience I've had so many bad run ins of this type of problem ( i can tell you many stories of this nature ) and I've had many people tell me of their stories as well so I'm not the only one.

          I can't explain why ??? Its always the same, lie, cheat, steal. I can open a can of worms with my stories here but sometimes things are better unsaid.

          Its just so happens for me and to each your own, obviously my experience is not the same like yours and vice versa and fair enough your opinion is different.. its like a$$holes, it may stink but everyones got one.

          To keep it civilized the best thing that I do is to avoid. I don't go out to hurt other people.. but I wonder if the reverse can be said.

    • tramperleo on 05/02/2015 - 20:09

      Same happened to me, delivered by myself and payment been claimed back by buyer.
      Thought…, so talked to the local courier guy because I have lot parcels to go with him everyday. Then he took me to the buyer's Home in his courier van and successfully get the payment back by cash.
      Now for all pick up items paid by paypal, I only accept the buyer himself to do pick up with driver license to be shot and a signature needed, or will not let the item go.

    • John Dough on 06/02/2015 - 16:06

      AMEN to this.

    • lousy on 07/02/2015 - 16:51

      PayPal is godlike when they come to making their resolution decisions. They won't come back and ask for more details or proof, they will simply spend 2 minutes reading a complaint and make a choice on whose side they take. Doesn't appear to be any logic behind it. Conversely I bought a dodgy item from seller, lodged dispute, SELLER then escalated claiming items picked up are not covered by PayPal protection and PayPal proceeded to shut down case, end of story, no further communication on the matter. I had to ring them up just to see wtf had happened.

  • nekro on 03/02/2015 - 22:36
    +1

    Surprised no-ones mentioned "bikies" yet

  • dlakers3peat on 03/02/2015 - 22:54

    Forget about the guy who ripped you off. He is long gone and there is nothing you can do. Your fight is now with PayPal. As I mentioned above follow the steps I have outlined above and provided you win you won't lose your money.

  • what on 03/02/2015 - 23:04

    Here is a scenario.

    I buy something on ebay and pay for it using my PayPal account. I receive the item but find it is faulty. I decide to hand deliver it to the seller because I do not want him saying that he did not receive it. He refunds my PayPal account in front of me. Is the seller then able to submit a dispute through PayPal, tell lies and have the money taken out of my account and refunded to him?

    • andyken on 04/02/2015 - 22:17

      NOT on refund, refund cant be dispute

      • what on 04/02/2015 - 22:29

        Thank you for your response. That is good to know. Although, because I have been so concerned, I called PayPal and they advised that it would be best to put in a dispute through them, which we ended up doing. It is good to know that they are there to assist. It is so disappointing to received something and find that it broken before you have even had a chance to use it.

  • usman6062 on 04/02/2015 - 19:00

    You can go to Petrol station, seek for Manager and ask for footage. You can get his car registration from there. If manager is not willing to help, try get a copy of police report with you. If he is able to extract a footage….then you can easily show that to paypal that this transaction is being done at the petrol station.

    Also, next time, try to keep messages record. Plus, try to email these things if possible… if it was a electronic gift card.

    good luck with everything.

  • Wallyt99 on 04/02/2015 - 21:23

    "I went to the police, and as far as they are concerned their is nothing to look at. I supplied the product and I was paid, end of story they said."

    Sorry - But the police were just fobbing you off. The crime committed was obtaining financial advantage by deception… I.e Fraud.

    It doesnt really matter whether the victim was you or Paypal - The person who picked up and spent the GC was the guilty party (may or may not be account holder).

    I suggest making another trip down to the station - and if they refuse to collect the evidence (now sadly - cctv prolly deleted as most places overwrite recordings weekly) raise the prospect of police ombudsman.

    • Charity on 05/02/2015 - 10:36
      +2

      unfortunately, they will likely say it is a civil case (not criminal).

      OP will be fobbed off again and they will probably check over his car for road-worthiness.

      • Wallyt99 on 06/02/2015 - 07:44

        They will try to fob him off again yes - but not after he mentions the ombuds - vbecause a crime HAS been committed and they are refusing to investigate. They would be in deep doodoo.

  • andyken on 04/02/2015 - 22:19

    the case is not over yet, as others mention, your fight now with paypal, not with the buyer, showed your SMS message to the paypal, explain to them you are the one who got scam, not the buyer.

  • DEvok on 04/02/2015 - 23:59

    This is why I would never use ebay or paypal or gumtree for gift cards, all my gift cards are sold via meet to meet at the shopping mall where the cards can be checked and examined. Op you should have posted it on Ozbaragin and would have been less of a hassle.

    • pointless martyr on 05/02/2015 - 19:25

      When ebay had 20% off i got a $600 gift card. It was free money. But i reckon anyone who trawls gumtree for giftcards is looking to rip you off!

  • sulmar on 05/02/2015 - 01:22
    +2

    On Gumtree, you should deal in CASH ONLY. No bank transfers/Paypal/cheques or whatever, it's going to be dodgy 99% of the time.

    OP, i feel bad for you. I hate to say it, but i think you're pretty screwed… Coming from someone who has been using Gumtree for years.

    • Wyzard on 05/02/2015 - 04:18
      +1

      I've successfully sold two cameras (both were between $800 and $1000) on Gumtree to interstate buyers… one via direct deposit and one via paypal. Guess I was the lucky 1%.

      Will definitely avoid any paypal transactions re Gumtree to err on the safe side from now on.

      • mooboy on 05/02/2015 - 13:50
        +1

        You're probably in the lucky 99%… but it would still suck to be in the unlucky 1%. Would be interesting to know what the real percentages of scams are.

    • chonghe on 05/02/2015 - 09:42

      I get the point to avoid paypal.
      But what's the problem with direct deposit to bank?
      Would the same trick work with bank?

      • smpantsonfire on 05/02/2015 - 10:15

        It's still an account that can be used fraudulently.

        So yes

        • kingmw on 07/02/2015 - 06:29

          But it is very hard for a bank to reverse a direct deposit compared to a credit transaction.

  • [Deactivated] on 05/02/2015 - 10:04
    -2

    If PayPal asks you to resolve things with the buyer by email make sure that you actively try to communicate and participate. But hold your ground and just give your side of the story. PayPal will be making a judgement based on the information given to them. If you don't send anything to them they will just think that you are fake.
    I have had 2 easy wins against dodgy Gumtree sellers because they didn't respond to any emails during the resolution process. Good luck.

    • garetz on 06/02/2015 - 13:27

      Yeah as a buyer you get the protection, the op isnt a buyer, but a seller who gets no protection.

      • [Deactivated] on 06/02/2015 - 22:22

        Not the point. I'm trying to inspire the OP to fight for his rights. You on the other hand are determined to smash all hope. Goodwork! As the OP mentions, PayPal has not even made a decision on the matter, so all this discussion is just hypothetical.

  • pointless martyr on 05/02/2015 - 11:15
    +6

    Sorry to say but i think you are boned. Those suggesting to pressure the cops are tripping - they will not launch a nationwide manhunt on your behalf. And the manager of the petrol station is likely some pimply 15 year old who wouldnt now how to get anything out of the surveillance system, and couldnt even get access to it unless it was for armed robbery or petrol theft. The card was as good as cash on the first place - you should have just used it on groceries or, ironically, petrol!

  • mrkyle on 05/02/2015 - 14:39
    +1

    man, had to log in so I can say "i feel ya"

  • PaKoRa on 05/02/2015 - 19:15
    +1

    sorry to hear this op… make it basic rule… if they pay via paypal (listing on GT /ebay) and want to pickup… refund the amount… let them know CASH ONLY. they don't like it then don't go ahead with transaction period…..

    • kingmw on 07/02/2015 - 06:32

      Would you do the same if the seller has 100% positive reviews?

      I must say I have picked up a few items after paying through paypal to protect myself.

      • PaKoRa on 07/02/2015 - 14:33

        yeah even if the buyer has 100% feedback . pickup is cash only or nada simplez. Buyer when picking up can test, check item …once happy complete transaction.

        you may be the few exceptions, however if i was seller i would refund your money instant - let you know to pay cash and if you're not HAPPY @ pickup time then don't go ahead which would be fine by me…. its simple and done the old fashion way hand to hand, no BS later.

  • ntt on 06/02/2015 - 03:03

    Hi OP, if the Paypal holder is not the guy you sold item, why don't you just play a game with him. You can report that your gift card was stolen and somebody used it, give police some job to do, at least you can see somebody use your card in CCTV. Maybe it is the bad advice but if you don't have any other choices, just try it.

  • lplau on 06/02/2015 - 09:18

    If i remember correctly paypal doesn't provide protection for gift cards or any other cash equivalents and pickup.
    If you have the guy's details, you can try to bring him to Small Claims Court to recover the money.

    Sadly this is very similar to a "Chargeback", however you don't really get much say in it unless you have photos of providing it to the other person. If you don't then it is nothing other than he said she said.

    Sadly you will need to pay Paypal back, as they can easily ruin your credit history and get a credit collection agency on your butt to recover the amount.

    Time to go read on their seller protection before you assume you are eligible for it.

  • pointless martyr on 06/02/2015 - 10:11
    +1

    I am really wondering why you sold the card in the first place…i assume it was an eftpos card - they are as good as cash even if you only buy groceries. Not to mention the other goods available with eftpos in this country such as petrol, liquor, homegoods, electronics, clothing etc. not to mention that you could have used it to pay bills such as licence, rego, insurance, utilities at the post office.

    ?

    • Zarcady on 07/02/2015 - 19:09

      Pointless comment…the reason for him sellIng the gift card is a non issue here unless the OP's story was fabricated in the first place

  • cupcake on 06/02/2015 - 11:24

    You have to wait until the paypal transaction is complete before you hand over the goods…

    If a dispute is made, you have an opportunity to reply before paypal makes a decision.

    Tell them exactly what happened.

    • lplau on 07/02/2015 - 14:51

      Lol a dispute can be raised within 180 days, you are going to wait 180 days before handing over the goods?

      • cupcake on 09/02/2015 - 15:00

        Sometimes it takes a few days for payment to clear when buyers pay via paypal. It has to come out of their bank account first.

        After a dispute is lodged, you have an opportunity to reply…

        • lplau on 09/02/2015 - 17:41

          it depends what they used for their payment method.
          Credit Card payments are cleared instantly.
          Where as Bank Account payments aren't cleared for a few days unless they have provided a credit card backup which allows them to do "Instant Cheques" which are cleared instantly.

  • garetz on 06/02/2015 - 13:25

    Paypal is a scam, every time i have used it outside of ebay, always have problems with it. They a 99.99% find in favor of the buyer, as a seller paypal will screw you over every time.

  • shaiguy on 06/02/2015 - 13:34
    +5

    Mate this is what you do.

    1. Write a statutory declaration detailing what you did and get it officially notarised.
    2. Send this to Paypal and ask specifically for them to get a statutory declaration from the other party detailing that it did not occur.
    3. Get Paypal to lodge a joint claim with you for fraud.

    Usually, the other person will not sign the statutory declaration as it is a criminal offence to do so. In this event, get Paypal to pursue them. I have dealt with similar experiences in the past and usually scares people off.

    If they are willing to sign a statutory dec and it genuinely was not the buyer then you should tell Paypal to pi$$ off as you should not be responsible for their lack of security and the onus is not on you to validate that the paypal buyer is who they are. They should be the ones pursuing it and calling the police. Not you.

    • lplau on 07/02/2015 - 14:50

      Paypal has no authority to force anybody to sign a stat dec. Without sufficient proof, you have no right to force anybody to give a statement or sign a stat dec.

      However If you wanted to ensure you don't get shafted, then you should have got the guy to sign the stat dec on purchase, e.g. provides him with a receipt.

      Also the seller is NOT protected by Seller protection, he/she should have read the t&c:

      https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#…

      'The item sold is an intangible good, travel tickets, quasi-cash, gift certificate, downloadable or streaming content, licence for digital content or a service;'

  • Lancerx on 06/02/2015 - 14:22
    +1

    Sorry OP you should know better to always transact in cash when selling stuff on gumtree, especially something so expensive..tough luck..learn from this

  • algy on 07/02/2015 - 00:46

    Happened to a few people I know selling CS:GO items. There was nothing they could do. PayPal shafts sellers, it's great for buyers though.

    • lplau on 07/02/2015 - 14:46

      Its not really that paypal shafts sellers. Its how the whole credit card industry shafts people.

      What happened is essentially a chargeback which was initiated by the buyer through paypal.
      Pretty much EVERYBODY here can do it on any of their purchases, but they would need to do a chargeback via the credit card company.

      Chargebacks are extremely non-beneficial to any company, as it requires ALOT of documentation and proof to revert a chargeback. In this case, if you provided paypal with the necessary proof, then they should be able to reverse the transaction back to the buyer.

      • algy on 07/02/2015 - 15:42

        Because PayPal doesn't condone the sale of digital items through their service if they buyer initiates a refund PayPal almost always sides with the buyer, no matter how much proof you have.

        • lplau on 07/02/2015 - 16:21

          True.
          If the OP had enough proof of the sale happening. Then he could go to Small Claims Courts.

  • Happy Bergin on 07/02/2015 - 07:26
    -1

    CLOSE YOUR ATTACHED BANK ACCOUNT!

    • lplau on 07/02/2015 - 14:43

      Lol, Paypal won't take the money directly out of your account usually.
      In order to avoid paying it back, you may need to burn your identity and start again so they cannot get the debt collectors on you.

  • Happy Bergin on 07/02/2015 - 07:26
    +1

    To hell with paypal!

  • drfuzzy on 07/02/2015 - 16:26
    -4

    You did a dumb thing by selling in this fashion. Chalk it up to learning and pay Paypal back what you owe them. Or accept that your credit rating may be (rightfully) damaged.

    To be fair to Paypal they shouldn't cover your mistake. If they were to cover this kind of fraud the losses would accumulate and get added back on to all our fees. Why should those who are more careful than you subsidise you for your mistake?

  • CHIEFMEGADETH on 08/02/2015 - 09:22

    I recommend you change your credit card number,so Paypal cant charge it. Just to be safe.
    Open a new pay pal account and move on. ignore their emails.
    You did nothing wrong,let them fit the bill for their stupidity.
    Not worth their time taking you to court.They will no doubt be covered for this.
    They will bug you may even try and call. other then that.

    Please don't pay for their stupidity and flaws in the system.

    • lplau on 15/02/2015 - 21:22

      Only works if you gave them a fake name and everything to begin with.

      They won't take you to court, but they can easily make a smudge on your credit record. Those things are hard to get changed, and I believe only the original raiser of the smudge can change it, e.g. you will need to sort things out with paypal if you want to fix it. Or wait 5 years until it blows over.

      Or they may just pass you onto credit collectors which will also smudge your credit record. Not sure if Australia allows companies to "sell" debt. I think the US allows companies to sell their debt (usually for a substantially lower price) to companies which specialize in harassing (debt collecting) the people to pay up.

      Actually technically speaking, it was the OP's stupidity, he passed over an item without any proof he passed over an item. If he did do that, he could have easily gone to Small Claims court with that and easily pawned the other guy.

      Its actually quite funny that everybody is blaming Paypal, it actually isn't paypal's fault. It is a normal chargeback process, it ALWAYS advantages the buyer. Shops hate the process because it is bias, the shop has to prove to the chargeback initiator that the goods was delivered to the person, if they cannot prove it then they will lose the money.

  • netsurfer on 08/02/2015 - 10:42

    The problem is actually the buyer or whoever pretended to be the buyer and picked up the card from you. Things to remember when selling on eBay or selling anything by accepting PayPal payment:

    • If the buyer complained and raised a claim, PayPal will in most cases, rule in favor of the buyer (otherwise who would use it).
    • PayPal does not really want to do charge back (because that means they wasted all their effort providing their service, and they cannot get their cut from the seller), but they had to do it in order to keep buyers happy.
    • To avoid item not delivered claims, use a postage service that provides both receive confirmation and tracking. It is worthwhile to lodge items in an actual post office and get that piece of paper.

    When you sell items on FeeBay or accepting PayPal, you are actually agreeing to a top quality service (at least within the first 2 months period) - I dare say at times better than services provided by Apple and Officeworks. You will get nasty buyers from time to time. I had to provide a full refund a few times (either not getting the item back or had to fund the return postage in full).

    You need to accept the loss unfortunately, otherwise you will risk a black mark on your financial record. It is common for new sellers to sell expensive items early. I made the same mistake and paid the price. It is best to sell cheaper items first, build up sufficient buffer for these unfortunate incidents, before selling more expensive items. For expensive items, keep a closer eye on the delivery and don't skim on the postage for those items. An alternative is cash on delivery.

  • umoddbro on 08/02/2015 - 11:22

    How are people still falling for Scamtree buyers? Scamtree = CASH on PICKUP, anything else = eBay.

  • unitato on 08/02/2015 - 18:10
    +1

    I had a similar problem with a gift card purchase through eBay. I purchased a $750 Westfield gift card for $711 on eBay and never received it. The buyer had a tracking number which showed that the item was delivered, but it was either stolen or delivered to the wrong address. After trying to claim the funds back through PayPal, they told me that I wasn't covered by buyer protection as the tracking number supplied showed that the item had been delivered.

    I argued that that it only showed that it was delivered to the same area, but not the same suburb. They then changed their reason to gift cards not being covered under PayPal buyer protection.

    I then lodged a complaint with the Financial Industry Ombudsman and was finally reimbursed by PayPal as a 'gesture of good will'. I argued that their protection policy was misleading… especially since it is advertised in the gift card category as well.

    Not exactly the same scenario, but you may be able to lodge a complaint through the FIO claiming that it is unfair that PayPal is offered via Gum Tree even though it is largely a classifieds service where things are mainly picked up in person.

  • jdogg on 18/02/2015 - 03:37

    Hey OP just wondering how you ended up??

  • MelbBargainChaser77 on 18/02/2015 - 14:24
    +3

    UPDATE

    I have refered the matter with the Financial Ombudman.

    Pay pal have emaile dme they are willing to reduced the amount I have to pay back to $450.

    I am not going to do that- they have said im im unhappy with their decision to refer it back to the ombudsman.

    I have done that.

    Now awaiting a resolution again

    • [Deactivated] on 18/02/2015 - 14:57
      +2

      Good luck. Thanks for keeping us informed.

  • MelbBargainChaser77 on 10/03/2015 - 09:56
    +5

    ** UPDATE 2**

    After rejecting paypals "offer" to pay them back just $450, and referring it back to the ombudsman, pay pal have just emailed me that they are backing off and will 100% wipe the whole amount.

    Thank you to the member dlakers3peat who gave me that idea in the first place, to report paypal to the financial ombusman

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