NSW Penalty Notice - Pay or Go to Court?

Ldjmatt24 on 29/01/2015 - 17:13
Last edited 29/01/2015 - 17:22

Hi all,

Recently I went to northern NSW with some friends for the day (I live in Brisbane, so about a 2 hour drive).
I parked on the side of a dirt road next to half a dozen other parked cars.
Had a really good day, but got back to the car to find a fine on the windscreen.

Apparently I'd parked in a "No Stopping" area and would have to pay a princely sum of $242.
I was totally shocked. I hadn't even seen the sign when I parked. I looked around for it and finally saw it.

It was totally covered in dirt.
You can see it HERE and HERE
I should point out that earlier in the day when I parked the sign had a 4WD in front of it and cars either side. So while it might look obvious now, You couldn't see the pole at all.

Well I applied for a review, saying the offence, which was "Disobeying a No Stopping Sign" should be chucked out. I got the reply today - rejected. I'm flabbergasted. Now my options are only to either pay or have it settled in court.

What do you think? Do I have a case? Should I fight it?

Automotive

Comments

  • subywagon on 29/01/2015 - 17:23

    Send a letter with the pics explaining it wasn't properly signed and you should get off…

    • Lichen6420 on 29/01/2015 - 17:39
      +2

      They already applied for a review. It failed.

      2 choices, Take it to court or suck it up and pay the fine.

      If i was a magistrate I would let you off, sign should be visible to be enforceable IMHO. Nothing to loose in challenging it.

      • RandomNinja on 29/01/2015 - 17:45
        +3

        If the photo was taken before the time of the fine, it would hold up better. Post fine, one might question whether the dirt was splashed on the sign…

        Not questioning OP's integrity; just looking at it from the judge's perspective, how would they know?

        • Lichen6420 on 29/01/2015 - 17:48
          +1

          That is a judges prerogative. They have to balance and decide on what is placed before them, that is their job.

          If the judge got the feeling the OP is a shady character and thinks they tampered with the sign then they will uphold the fine…. if not then it will likely be chucked out… it's the vibe of the thing !

          I will note the pole is also really dirty, it's a dirt road… needs to be cleaned.

        • PJC on 29/01/2015 - 17:52
          +3

          It was a dry day, so splashing dirt so high that really sticks would have been difficult.

        • victorwilson on 29/01/2015 - 23:00
          +23

          If OP took a photo of the No Stopping sign before he received the fine, doesn't that imply that he knows it exists?

        • [Deactivated] on 31/01/2015 - 12:15
          +2

          Because we live in an evidence-based society with "innocent until proven guilty". With reasonable doubt like this I would put it to the judge that the issuing agency should be the ones who need to prove what state the sign was in at the time of the offense.

          In VIC whenever I see parking inspectors issuing infringements they ALWAYS take photos from multiple angles.

          IANAL.

      • subywagon on 30/01/2015 - 02:14
        +1

        Ah, I shouldn't speed read posts when giving advice. Similar thing happened to my dad, white lines were faded that meant no parking. He was fined. I told him to take a pic of the lines and send a letter. He did and got out of it. Guess it really depends on who is reviewing them.

  • leonheart1 on 29/01/2015 - 17:53
    +3

    Is it dirty in google Street view? They are dated so you may have a shot with that.

    • djmatt24 on 29/01/2015 - 22:00

      Frustratingly, looking on street doesn't help. The sign does seem scratched/damaged, but it seems to be right at a join of images - the sign is warped by it. So no good as evidence.

  • Islund on 29/01/2015 - 17:55

    How else do you expect the government to make money?

    The way they have the fine system rigged is so it is virtually impregnable to get off.

  • sraymond on 29/01/2015 - 17:58
    +12

    Go to court. The judge will throw that out for sure.

  • anna10 on 29/01/2015 - 18:00
    +3

    I have noticed that parking inspectors also photo the signs for use in a case. So, say maybe one of the other people who got a fine tried to rub the dirt on it (it does look rubbed on), before you got back and you 'challenge' it and fail, it will be expensive. Good idea to check out google street view if possible.

    Have a look at what the court says if you fail re the extra $$ it will cost you, and decide if you are a risk taker or not.

    • [Deactivated] on 30/01/2015 - 09:19

      Good point - is it possible to request to see the (or simply ask if the inspector HAD taken a) photo of the sign that day? Prior to taking it to court?

      Or is that too hopeful lol.

      You have your photographic evidence… where is theirs?

      Doesn't really make sense… when we get red light camera fines, we have the option of looking up the photographic proof very freely online. I've had one red light camera fine in my life and was able to view the image before paying the fine. Why can't they offer the same for other fines?

      hmm

      • djmatt24 on 30/01/2015 - 17:12

        I'll ask for a picture. I have worked out through google street view that the sign is at least 5 years old (Jan 2014, distinguishable marks on sign). The dirt buildup in the photo certainly looks old as well.

  • 2jzzzz on 29/01/2015 - 18:31
    +8

    Wouldn't OP have to travel back to NSW to go to court?

    • [Deactivated] on 31/01/2015 - 12:18

      He can do an initial consult with a lawyer (plenty of lawyers who do initial consults for free) and they will give them an idea of costs and if the issuing agency/judge is likely to award expenses if not found guilty.

      • [Deactivated] on 31/01/2015 - 18:32

        Forgot to actually say… send the lawyer to represent him.

  • na8an on 29/01/2015 - 18:36
    +1

    how much does it cost you for settling in court, assuming you lost the case. If its not much difference you an take it to the court.

    • Davo1111 on 29/01/2015 - 19:02
      +2

      i think they charge you $100 in court fees if you lose.

      • team teri on 29/01/2015 - 19:14
        +3

        You better get some definitive idea on how high the court costs would be. Here's a scary example, fine halved to $50, court costs $2800!
        http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/man-has-100-pa…

      • na8an on 29/01/2015 - 20:59

        If he wins, do they cover his expenses for coming to court and other incurred charges?

        • isthisreally_me on 31/01/2015 - 15:51

          No, in Australia you don't get court costs or $$ for your time

        • [Deactivated] on 31/01/2015 - 18:31

          @isthisreally_me: you can get court costs and legal costs, not compensation for time.

        • na8an on 01/02/2015 - 02:10

          @isthisreally_me: thats two losses!! job and case

  • toristo on 29/01/2015 - 19:04
    +1

    I don't suppose this is the road down from Byron Bay above Kings Beach?
    I got booked there, same thing. I just paid it because I didn't see the sign (a few years ago now) but it was there. They did probably 50 cars that we saw in the area. Clearly a hotspot for them, but no incentive to put up more signs I guess.

    • [Deactivated] on 30/01/2015 - 09:13

      They did probably 50 cars that we saw in the area. Clearly a hotspot for them,
      …

      but no incentive to put up more signs I guess.

      Of course not ;) See your previous statements as to why lol. $$$

  • Davo1111 on 29/01/2015 - 19:07
    +1

    I'd fight it on principal. However, the council probably took photos at the time of the ticket being issued. You didnt chuck dirt up there yourself?

  • Cave Fire on 29/01/2015 - 19:18

    Was any reason given as to why your application was rejected? You could try someone higher up. Maybe a different opinion could work in your favour. You may want to look at the website of the council or organisation that is in charge of the sign. For example, traffic fine appeals under the Brisbane City Council can be subject to a stage two review, if the respondant wishes to raise it to this level.

    • djmatt24 on 29/01/2015 - 22:06
      +1

      I was given a reason, which was:
      "The issuing officer has indicated the No Stopping restrictions were signposted. It is the responsibility of all drivers to ensure they check for, and comply with the signposted restrictions before leaving the vehicle."

      I did speak to someone on the phone today, who said I shouldn't need to see the words, it's a rectangle and I should know a rectangle means No Stopping, just like a hexagon means Stop. Also that I should have stood on the car in front of the pole and wiped the sign.

      So not very helpful. There doesn't seem to be a level up for NSW except court.

      • anna10 on 30/01/2015 - 08:02
        +1

        I think that it could be seen as a good warning from someone who advising you that if you challenge it, you may loose. Either that, or you can think they are just trying to get you to go away and not make work for them, but that it's worth a go. It is a risk. If you like the 'fight' go for it, but there is a $$$ penalty for 'wasting their time'.

        This is one of those things where you only get caught once, from now on you'll be like those cautious people who walk up and down looking for hidden signs :)

      • team teri on 30/01/2015 - 11:50
        +5

        I'd say that is bullshit - since it is a "no stopping" sign you are already liable for a fine before you get ready to leave your car, as soon as it is stopped there (even while the engine is still running!).

        To anyone capable of logical thinking that in turn means that a "no stopping" sign needs to be clearly visible from within a moving car, not only after you get out and then start searching for it and scrape off dirt.

        There is a good reason the fine at "no stopping" is twice as high as for "no parking", but at the same time that should imply a higher level of scrutiny regarding correct placement and visibiltiy of signs.

        Any reasonable judge would agree. The question is, what are the odds of finding one of those? And what are the costs of losing if you don't?

        As to there being a rectangle, that could be anything from 'one way' to 'no dogs allowed'. https://www.google.com/search?q=rectangular+signs+australia&…

        Sounds like they are making up their arguments on the run.

      • Cave Fire on 30/01/2015 - 12:09

        Ok, was the person you spoke to a front line employee or a supervisor/manager? It sounds like they are saying things that sound right but are not correct IMO. I would think that the council has a duty of care to make sure there sign is visible. I remember some case examples were signs were damaged or obscured and not enforceable. Also, a 4P parking sign is rectangular as well. I'd check if you do have legal grounds for an appeal, then try to speak to a manager to review the case according to this. Aussielegal is a good website to get some legal advice, but you may want to try other sources.

      • WaterMark on 31/01/2015 - 17:24
        +2

        but you could argue that in order to look at the sign and "CLEAN IT" you need to STOP your car which you should not need to. Their justification is invalid and I think they know of this and they are using this to cheat people their money. Think about it - if they get 50 cars a day then why not keep it like that. 50 cars is 10K a day…

  • SlickMick on 30/01/2015 - 09:00
    +3

    I have 2 stories that might be relevant.
    1) Brisbane City Council fined me, and some colleagues, and I presume everyone parked along a particular street, for parking in an area zoned no standing 7-9am. The ticket was dated 4:15pm. (The loser had checked the wrong side of the street.) So we all refuted the fine and wrote letters and gave online feedback etc, but it took months before they finally said we didn't have to pay. My conclusion: parking fines are a revenue stream that won't be given up lightly, even when they're wrong.
    2) I wanted to go to Brisbane Open or whatever the tennis comp is called. Saw several pairs of parking inspectors marking tyres in 4hr parking area and didn't want to risk not being able to come out and move car, so drove further and found plenty of parks in an unzoned area right near the train station. It was too good to be true, so I went and asked one of the parking inspectors, who said it was zoned differently on match days. I pointed out that there are no signs and that all these cars, including mine, had no way of knowing that, but was told there are large signs "at every entrance into the zone". We went driving around looking for a place to park and didn't not see these signs anywhere. On the other side of Fairfield Road, all the parking signs had an extra, very visible, yellow attachment saying 1 hour on match days. I reckon the other side needs that as well. I wanted to put a note on every windscreen to form a class action and fight the fines, but my wife would rather watch tennis than fight for justice.

    • WT on 30/01/2015 - 11:53

      councils are sneaky. We parked at Hurstville, backed in and thought the spot was unusually large. Looked behind and to the sides, only the car next to us was a disabled park and though it was because of that.

      Got back to a fine, had another look, nothing. No signs. Had a look under the car and found it painted on the ground, because we backed in we didn't see it.

      Stupidly we didn't take photos and wrote in for a review, 8 weeks later they denied it because that's how long it took them to put up a sign.

      On the other side of the spectrum, you could park your car in the middle of the road all day in bankstown and not get a single council fine for parking. They simply don't have them and idiots park wherever, you name it, I have seen it all here

  • kangeroo2 on 30/01/2015 - 09:00

    Take it to court mate. The sign is defaced and do a google street view.

  • woz on 30/01/2015 - 09:35
    +2

    My father has a very nasty habit which I do not condone. If he has trouble finding a parking place, such as at a football game, he looks for a bunch of cars that have already been ticketed. He then grabs someone else's ticket and places it on his car.

    He says that the victim can't be asked to pay twice for the same infringement at the same time, but I'd hate to be the one trying to explain that over the phone when faced with two tickets.

    • [Deactivated] on 30/01/2015 - 10:07

      lol cheeky

    • Lockieasy on 30/01/2015 - 16:45
      +2

      Haha that's great. On the topic of father stories, mine keeps a collection of parking meter tickets (the ones you display on your dashboard) in his car and reuses them to get free parking. His theory is that the inspectors only check the time displayed on the ticket, not the date which is often printed in much smaller text. Hasn't been fined yet!

      • altomic on 31/01/2015 - 22:23
        +2

        when i was at monash uni in the 90's I scanned and photoshopped all my parking meter tickets for 2 years.

    • jelko on 31/01/2015 - 13:30

      I got 2 parking tickets in an afternoon, so it doesn't always work :)

    • JayM on 31/01/2015 - 13:53

      If I get a fine I take it out and put the envelope on my friends' cars and try and get value out of it. Can be used multiple times in different locations too.

      We get our fines in little yellow envelopes in the ACT. Pity I Cant but do that with council wheel "boots".

  • Gday on 30/01/2015 - 12:44
    +2

    I suggest you ask the NSW Ombudsman to review the administrative decision not to withdraw the penalty notice. Their jurisdiction includes local government bodies.

    Perhaps phone them first to check whether they will take this kind of matter on.

    Here is a link to their website: https://www.ombo.nsw.gov.au/complaints/making-a-complaint/wh….

  • Euphemistic on 30/01/2015 - 13:55

    Is there matching signs defingin the start and end of the no stopping sign and signs spaced at a distance between? I can't tell from the photo which way the zone goes due to the dirt. There may be grounds for dismissal if there isn't. I have heard that rangers cannot issue a fine if there is only one sign, ie a start and no end or vice versa. You might need to do some research as to what exactly constitutes a no stopping zone before hand though.

  • GaryQ on 30/01/2015 - 18:15

    I once copped a parking fine in Brisbane because I didnt see a 15 minute loading zone sign, and thought I had just found a magic parking spot. It was a rented car, and I live in Victoria. I didn't bother paying it, and I get a letter every few months telling me it is still outstanding.

    Big deal - send the Sheriff on a flight to Melbourne if you want to confiscate my DVD player

    • leiiv on 31/01/2015 - 11:39
      +1

      Don't they force the rental company to pay the fine and then the rental company charge your credit card for the fine?

    • jason101 on 31/01/2015 - 14:02
      +3

      Good plan until you apply for a home loan or a credit card and get rejected over a trivial fine you forgot about 5 years ago which has stained your credit rating.

      • matthewjw on 04/02/2015 - 19:41
        +1

        Rental company has no way of lodging such an issue against your credit file - so its a moot point in that respect. No credit contract = no ability to lodge default.

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