Grey Import Vs. Australian Stock

Fellow OzBargainers,

I've recently had this discussion with a lot of people, including around various places on the OzBargain forums and I wanted to have a discussion on the realities of buying Grey Imports and Australian Stock, as well as to dispel myths and rumours about what Grey Imports actually are.

The reason why I wanted to start this discussion is because I think both sides have very valid pros and cons, but the majority of people who suggest buying Grey or buying Australian give the wrong reasons. For me, unless the price is significantly close, I will always buy Grey, the reason for this is because I believe in voting with my wallet, the longer we continue to buy from Australian retailers, the longer we condone their practices of high margins, markups and what we now know as the "Australia Tax".

These are some common myths about buying Grey that I have heard:

1) Grey Imports are Illegal - They're not, there's nothing illegal about grey imports, you're not going to get caught by the AFP or any of that sort of stuff.

2) Grey Import companies are shady companies who steal your money - Again, this is another untrue myth spread by those who probably own shares in JB HiFi or the like. Reputable Grey Import companies such as Kogan, DWI, eGlobal, Expansys and the like all have great reviews on Whirlpool and myself and many other people have purchased successfully from them. Of course, exercise buyer discretion and think, but by no means are grey importers shady or dodgy. People might not be aware, but buying things on Amazon also counts as Grey Imports.

3) Buy from Australia because you're supporting Australians. What a load of bollocks. This sounds like you've caught onto what Gerry Harvey is saying and you've caught the "patriotic Australian" bug. Let me break it down for you. When you walk into a Harvey Norman store and you buy from them, you're not really supporting "Australians", there's no local guy who earns money and delivers a better service for you, you're just lining the pockets of shareholders, who might or might not even be Australian, as well as the pockets of losers like Gerry Harvey. Also, a lot of grey importers are also Australian companies, surprise surprise, I'm not sure whether I'd rather support Gerry Harvey or Ruslan Kogan and his cronies, I'm not sure why people, especially people around here, make it seem like supporting Harvey is good whilst supporting Kogan is bad. Makes no sense.

4) Grey Imports have no Warranty. This is false. You might not have Australian warranty, but you definitely do have warranty. If you're lucky, you might get Australian warranty as well. I know someone who bought an iPad grey and went to an Apple store and they fixed it for him, so your mileage may vary. That said, you simply have to return your product to the country of origin for the warranty process. An example of this is Amazon, who have great warranty. Ship it back to the and they'll deal with it. Again, a lot of grey importers do have great warranty records, exert buyer discretion and research and you'll be able to figure things out.

5) Warranty is actually a big deal. Not really, what's the probability of you getting a DOA product or one that will break under warranty vs. the savings you'll get. Believe it or not, unless there's a genuine manufacturing fault with the product (which will be well documented), warranty isn't actually worth that much, as a dollar amount, at all. With the extremely short warranties you get on all the tech stuff these days and the short life-cycle, most of us throw things out before they're even broken anyway.

Now some of the reasons why I never want to buy local are as follows:

1) Price. Plain and simple really, Australian retailers, especially the big guys like HN, JB HiFi and others, as well as Australian distributors are ripping everyone off. The longer we stick around and buy at these expensive prices, the longer they keep this behaviour up.

2) Supporting losers like Gerry Harvey, JB HiFi, TGG…etc. I don't want to support these businesses because, quite honestly, they're crap businesses who harp on about supporting them because they're Australian when, in reality, they suck. Their business models are crap, their prices are crap and their inventory systems are crap. I'd much rather buy from an innovative business such as Amazon which actually develops new technologies than from ice-age Australian retailers who are always slow to the party and are, quite simply, not deserving of customers. Think about Amazon's inventory system and their web servers. How often do you hear about Amazon going down or having a price error or refunding people because they don't have stock? Not often, right? How often do you hear it happening to Australian retailers? All the time. They need to up their game before they're worthy of being considered.

What's even more ridiculous is that I can buy a camera from eGlobal today and get it within the next 3 - 5 days. The last time someone I knew bought something from Harvey Norman, it took them a good week to get there. How ridiculous when within Australia, they aren't even efficient enough to get things where they need to go faster than grey importers.

3) I do buy from local stores with good business models. You know what one of my favourite Australian stores is? MSY. Yeah, that dodgy looking, warehouse turned into a computer store. You know why I buy from them? Because their prices are competitive with what I can get elsewhere, e.g. on Amazon, their customer service is crap, but they are okay with warranty as the ACCC cracked down on them a few years ago. They have an okay online inventory system and most of the time, I can get in and get out quickly, just not during peak times.

This is what I don't understand. I think what major Australian retailers don't understand is that the days of retail are over. Nobody I know would ever walk into a Harvey Norman and buy stuff. It's just ridiculously overpriced, but not only that, it's staffed by people who are genuinely clueless about the products they are selling. Their computer departments are stocked with young guys who think they know about technology, but in fact, know around half of what an informed consumer who has researched the products would know. Money is being wasted on employing losers, on hiring massive shopping room floors and not on delivering better customer satisfaction.

What I think would help these guys survive is to cut costs and offer a warehouse model, not too different from MSY, where I can just get in, buy what I need and get out without being annoyed by employees who don't know what they're talking about and not paying for the massive shopping room floor they have.

Anyway, that's just my two cents on why I love Grey Import, if you're a Local Buyer, let us know what you love about buying local and share your experiences.

Hope to hear from you guys!

Comments

  • +3

    I think the warehouse model works for some people but not others.

    People who research beforehand and make a conscious decision to buy a new product would benefit from the warehouse model.

    The baby boomer who walks into HN and asks the assistant for "a cable to hook up the dvd player to my TV" and buys the first thing handed to them without knowing anything else would be utterly lost without further help.

    I think stores like HN etc would be around for a little while longer purely because of the second type of person but I'm glad we have alternate avenues such as the grey market for the more savvy consumers.

    • To be honest, I think people who buy like that are ruining for everyone, the reason why Australians keep getting beaten over the head on price compared to so many places around the world is because the average Australian shopper isn't very well informed.

      • It's the great Australia Tax at work here — take into account the 10% GST on goods that we sell here and with the high cost of Australian labour and operating costs, its little wonder why everyone in Australia feels like they're being ripped off.
        Offshore retailers have a major competitive advantage over Australian businesses; no GST means better prices and no retail staff means no wages to pay either.

        • +4

          Whilst I agree that the GST is a downer, I still think the business model which Australian retailers are following is the bigger issue.

          Retailers such as HN, JB HiFi and the like all place their emphasis on display stores. They hire prime locations for (what I assume, would be) extremely high costs. They hire a bunch of employees, who stand around doing nothing most of the time.

          But most importantly, they have a weak online presence. Their online stores are rife with issues including orders being completely forgotten about, serves crashing, price errors and especially, extremely slow response time on orders. One of the few okay Australian online sellers is Officeworks, who have great phone support, ship orders quickly and are actually not too bad with their inventory.

          As a computer guy, I'm sure you've been to MSY. That's an alternative business strategy, to hire dirt cheap warehouses to operate out of, hire a few employees and offer products for competitive prices. In fact, the MSY model isn't actually all that uncommon. Many fashion retailers are opening up DFOs not too different from the MSY model and are a great hit with lots of shoppers.

          The problem is the obsession with showrooms. These days, with the internet, you can find out more about a product than you ever could checking it out in a showroom, they've become redundant and Australian retailers haven't caught onto that yet.

          If the price difference was simply GST, I wouldn't mind paying that, plus, I'm sure once shipping costs and the like have been factored in with grey imports, GST wouldn't even be that big. Also, getting it instantly from a store would be good too. But I'm all for price and the price just isn't good enough.

        • @paulsterio:

          Can point to the inflated price these costly "showrooms" add to the price?

          I'd like to know how much u think it adds, as opposed to the cost of the last mile in online delivery.

          Listen to planet money, they had a podcast of the cost of a tee shirt, from the cotton to the back of end customer. The last mile of delivery was (from memory) one of the most expensive line items.

          So either way, u can save the last mile by paying fixed rent, and let people come pick up. Or you can pay the last mileage cost.

          I don't think it's a huge wastage of economic resources to have a show room, as ur so against.

        • -1

          @cloudy:

          Can point to the inflated price these costly "showrooms" add to the price?

          How much do you think Harvey Norman pays to have massive showrooms and to have around 20 employees standing around doing nothing?

          I don't think it's a huge wastage of economic resources to have a show room, as ur so against.

          It's a suggestion which I think a lot of retailers are actually taking onboard. Look at how successful the DFO models are as opposed to the older high fashion retail.

        • @paulsterio:

          One problem I have with Officeworks is they often advertise on TV items at a discount price On seeing such advertisements I've gone to their online store and discovered those bargains are only available in-store,which they don't mention during their commercial. This makes it difficult for me as my nearest Officeworks is about 200 kilometres away. I have missed out on many great bargains due to them not having price parity. So if it's cheaper to run an on-line store than to run a bricks and mortar store, why does Officeworks mess people around like that? They entice you to buy from them with their TV commercials but they then lose customers who cannot get to one of their stores.

          Makes no sense to me.

        • @paulsterio:

          To be honest, if HN, TGG, etc. went down the warehouse model, I think they'd follow in the footsteps of Argos in the UK, which I personally found was not very competitive on price - still better to order from Amazon.

        • +1

          @paulsterio:
          You talk about the success of DFO for high end fashion retail.
          Do you know how they are able to sell stock at a discounted factor?
          Most of this stock are the remnants of non-sell able stock, out of season or samples that come from you guessed it the high end retail stores in prime locations.
          They are able to discount this stock because whatever they sell is a recovery on a cost with money they've already spent. They've made most of their margins in the growth of their product at their traditional high end retail stores. The product is now in decline hence they can sell it at a cheaper price.
          Yes, DFO do stock current season goods but most of the brands do not give a large discount on the RRP for current season stock.

      • Re:

        "To be honest, I think people who buy like that are ruining for everyone…"

        Can you perhaps come down to earth for a second and realise you are not the only dude on it? The "everyone" in your above (self-centred) statement you are referring to are the majority. So what you seem to be saying is, the way that the majority chooses to shop, is not agreeable to YOU.

        Far out hombre… never before have I laboured through so many words, to find such little actual substance in any of it. Your crap about warranties is way left of factual/sensible, you constantly inexplicably refer to various entities as "losers" in a juvenile/school-yard manner, you over-simplify the concept of supporting local business to the point that I doubt you actually understand it… man, I could go on but somehow I'm guessing you've stopped reading at this point, so I won't bother.

        Do realise though, that what you consider to be the best "consumer methods" for you, are certainly not necessarily what will be best for others; and to presume that they are is simply arrogant/ self-centred/ naive in the extreme.

        • Can you perhaps come down to earth for a second and realise you are not the only dude on it? The "everyone" in your above (self-centred) statement you are referring to are the majority. So what you seem to be saying is, the way that the majority chooses to shop, is not agreeable to YOU.

          No, the way that many people choose to shop allows manufacturers, distributors and large chain corporations such as HN and JB to take advantage of Australians who are all too willing to pay more for some sense of patriotic pride.

          Your crap about warranties is way left of factual/sensible

          What is not factual or sensible?

          you constantly inexplicably refer to various entities as "losers" in a juvenile/school-yard manner

          Please don't tell me that you actually consider Gerry Harvey to not be a loser.

          you over-simplify the concept of supporting local business to the point that I doubt you actually understand it

          Why should we support local businesses? Is this some sort of nationalistic pride because it's the "Australian" thing to do. Look at the car industry, did anybody buy Holdens to "help Australian business" - clearly not, because their sales have been declining, they relied on government subsidies for years and finally, they've moved on.

          That's the truth of the matter. Australians need to wake up and realise that they're being taken for a ride with this whole "Australia Tax" stuff because they let it happen.

          Funnily enough, those who harp on about supporting local business are those who are often against foreign investment. The world is moving global, you can't stop the movement.

          Also, let's not get into whether I understand it or not. I'm university educated in this stuff and I can have an academic conversation with you about all this if you want.

          Do realise though, that what you consider to be the best "consumer methods" for you, are certainly not necessarily what will be best for others; and to presume that they are is simply arrogant/ self-centred/ naive in the extreme.

          Well if you enjoy being ripped off by the "Australia Tax", then sure, do what you want.

  • +3

    Any chance you can make a TL:DR? That has to be one of the longest forum posts I have ever seen…

    • Just read the headings of each point and not the rest of it, enough to get the gist, most of it is just discussion.

    • +3

      TLDR: Grey imports are a legitimate method to save money. The main downside is local warranty support, which purely depends on the product.

  • I usually only buy local for high value items that may require warranty following the formula below:
    Total Grey Price [including delivery costs] x 110% [for gst] x (1.05)[Local Warranty premium] = Amount I would be willing to pay for local equivalent.
    Reasoning: GST, I'll pay it, to even the playing field for whoever is trying to be a competitive middleman in Australia.
    Local warranty -> I'll pay 5% to 10% of the price IF the local warranty is worth it as it's much more lenient to those overseas, faster and usually it's 24 months for local stock (phones) compared to 12 months for grey. You also get to chuck a hissy fit on their facebook page or whirlpool if they play dirty.
    As a rule of thumb, I consider anything above $100 warranty worthy, laptops, phones, things that have a tendency to fail.

  • +4

    A product sold in, let's say HK, pays no sales tax, workers have no or little working conditions, hence why they have such low wages, receive subsidized shipping ( why else's can I get $1 items from dx cheaper than me sending the same item to my next door neighbour).
    This all leads to a society where the poorest are dirt poor, and big business rule the world ( the CEO of HK even says the poor don't deserve to vote coz they are poor), no social security (I see 80 yr old people picking up cardboard boxes to sell to recyclers for $1hk per approx 400grms), etc.

    Now those my arguments for not buying cheap grey imports, I hardly know a country selling grey imports where the countries conditions are more reasonable than what we take for granted here.

    Now for the reasons why, you should buy from Australian retailers, even at a decent premium.
    - They pay GST
    - they pay Australian decent wages, with decent working conditions
    - those employed pay income tax
    - 90% of those companies u mention are owned by ourselves, in the form of direct shares or shares in our own superannuation fund ( yes, if we dont shop at them over international grey imports we are choosing not to shop at our own stores). Yes, I now Gerry Harvey owns most of his company, but is he is exception and not the rule. I make no exaggeration when I say 90% mind you, coz if u studied foreign ownership of shares, the majority only head into our largest institutions ( big 4 banks plus TLS, BHP and RIO)
    - on top of keverything I wrote, I can also write about warranty, human interaction, about to pick up immediately, etc, but I think that's all the obvious.

    • +1

      And just to stick my neck out there and put a figure of what I think is reasonable to pay as extra for a Australian sold product, I'd say anything within 20% extra, should cover taxes and employee wages and sticking money back into my own super fund pocket is worthwhile.

      If something is over 30% more, I would go grey import too, coz that is getting big.

      I'd also add this, with youth unemployment rising steady, we risk having our youths hanging around streets if not for retail employment, a non working person has little choice if not studying. Go on govt benefit, which further strains those are working, or dare I paint a generic brush and say they risk being petty crims and society all pays for the cost in the end.

      • And just to stick my neck out there and put a figure of what I think is reasonable to pay as extra for a Australian sold product, I'd say anything within 20% extra, should cover taxes and employee wages and sticking money back into my own super fund pocket is worthwhile.

        I agree with this. 25% is a good premium to "Support Australian Jobs" - for retail, it's basically adding value for the employee's time and warranty service.

        I'd also add this, with youth unemployment rising steady, we risk having our youths hanging around streets if not for retail employment, a non working person has little choice if not studying.

        They should find something that isn't as easily replaceable.

        (the CEO of HK even says the poor don't deserve to vote coz they are poor)

        It's not about poor not deserving to vote.. it's about everyone voting for their own interests, and not for the greater good of the people. In a way it's like saying the people who are on the dole should not be allowed to vote, when there is a significant amount of the population on the dole, they will ALWAYS vote against any dole-decreasing policy.

  • So have you convinced yourself that grey is better then aus stock?

    • +2

      They're both the same product, I don't have a problem with grey or Australian stock as long as it works - it's the significant price difference which I don't like.

  • +3

    paulsterio

    Everything that you say makes perfect sense. The GST that Gerry Harvey bleats about is not really a factor, as the "Australian tax" is inflated by over-the-top profit margins. The amazon merchants have much lower profit margins and benefit from large scale turnover. Choice magazine many years ago suggested that the cost of extra warranty can not be justified unless the item is from Apple. Australia has too many Qantas tragics, and Telstra tragics who do not understand how they have been exploited due to a misplaced sense of loyalty. The first rule of Australian business is "never give a sucker an even break". Australian companies generally do not even pretend to care about customer service unless they are forced to do so by legislation. The small account protection for super accounts was removed by the current Federal government, have the super funds restrained any urge to impose fees on small accounts? Even if the GST is applied to imported goods under $1000, it will still be cheaper to buy goods online and pay GST, and come out in front due to the "Australia tax". Anyone who really believes that the GST would cause online purchases to stop,is in need of a holiday. The people who have waffled on elsewhere about "grey imports" being illegal do not understand that if an item is shipped directly from Hong Kong, then it has not been imported to be resold here.

    I am a baby boomer and tech savvy, as are in fact many around my age. We are not all stupid and need help with cables etc. Not all department store customers are old farts like me. The OP paulsterio is a sane voice in the wilderness of patriotic suckers.

    • +2

      Completely agree with you.

      Australia is full of antiquated business models, resting on the laurels of old performance to justify that they will be okay. Qantas harped on about their safety record for decades, not keeping up with the times and costs and suddenly everyone is now flying elsewhere. Same goes with Telstra, thinking they had the monopoly of ADSL lines.

      It's exactly the same in retail, antiquated retailers using antiquated techniques which are making them uncompetitive. One day when they look back, hopefully they will have realised that they should have moved with the times, but it'll be too late then won't it?

      • +1

        And for once, paulsterio I completely agree :)

        To be honest, I've long been ruing the same damn issues. It's symptomatic of a certain apathy here in Oz. Here's the breakdown, as I see it.

        1. Sit on yer arse until a problem arises.
        2. Delegate responsibility for the problem.
        3. Gormlessly stare at the problem; stare it down and it might just go away!
        4. Whinge, whinge, whinge. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
        5. Wait some more, until the problem becomes a crisis.
        6. Hire PR firm to blame crisis on others (government, consumers, hippies etc).
        7. Turn it into a political football to guarantee nothing will be done about it…
        8. …until the electorate practically begs for leadership on the issue. This is also known as "bending over and spreading 'em" as it's the consumer/tax payer who ALWAYS pays in the end.
        9. Be bled dry. Again. Only in this case, they will manipulate the GST threshold after airing submissions of the incredible bargains everyone is taking advantage of.

        Because, crikey! Aussies getting a good deal? Can't have that, can we?

        I'd expect the threshold to be eliminated altogether, along with the full GST rate PLUS a new levy they'll cook up.

        I also hate hearing Harvey whinge endlessly about how poor he is. A few years ago I nearly kicked my TV when he started preaching about buying Australian Made. They seem to think we're all idiots.
        I'm sure over 90% of HN inventory is made overseas. He gets one or two furniture makers on board, and suddenly he's Banjo Patterson!

      • I agree. This country has been unable to adapt to changing local and worldwide conditions. There aren't any successful Australian online retailers shipping goods overseas, and locals prefer Amazon and other US stores to local online businesses due to their ripoff pricing and limited product range. Our economy is still focused on mining and farming, and we have failed to develop high tech industries or creative IP producing businesses. Companies cling on to their old monoplies.

        We cannot even manufacture what we consume anymore. We have bceome a dumping ground for (mostly) Chinese fabricated goods.

  • I generally wander around and window-shop for ~ 3 weeks before any > $500 purchase. Two reasons I will rarely go to one large nation chain who are hardly normal are their pricing policies and their warranty support. I can gauge when they are about to have a sale, as many of their items will have a price rise, whereby instead of being merely ~$15-$30 higher than competitors, they lift to $50-$70 higher before their ~ $40 "drop". Try returning anything after a week and it is " take it to the manufacturer". The practice of a reduction of 30% on a $120 cable with all the function of a $12 [ or $2 at MSY] one is common to most box-shifter stores tho.

    I think the best buy Aussie' laugh I had tho were Midas' mufflers - were part of the cost for the flimsy mild-steel affair they tacked on was for an Australian flag to be painted on. I'm sure it would have been a big comfort to any true-blue ocker run over in the first two weeks of its short life to know they had been trashed by a dinkie-di bogan, not a blow-in.

  • Just brilliant,when nobody is working in the retail industry anymore and not paying GST or Income Taxes,what will be your call then genius.

    • +1

      GST has an easy solution - tax grey imports, they'd still be cheaper than buying locally.

      Retail industry - that's just too bad, but you can't keep going out of your way to keep making sure people keep their jobs. Look at the car industry, propped up by governments for years because they didn't want people to lose their jobs and for pure nationalistic pride - it was going to go sooner or later.

      Same goes with the retail industry - HN, JB HiFi and the like are all on the way out, just like the car industry. This is not the death of retail, I'm sure Woolworths, Coles, KMart and Target will be around for ages.

      Unless they change their business structure, they are going to die, no point artificially propping up dying industries just for nationalistic pride.

      • Glad to see you exposed your agenda - in the long run taxing grey imports would save me money because i would consume far less. I don't really need some things, like the majority, and rather than put up with ripped off by businesses refusing warranty for no reason I would simply stop buying many things.

        And taxing grey imports would do nothing to support the non existent enforcement of Australian trading laws would it?

      • +1

        Retail industry - that's just too bad, but you can't keep going out of your way to keep making sure people keep their jobs. Look at the car industry, propped up by governments for years because they didn't want people to lose their jobs and for pure nationalistic pride - it was going to go sooner or later.

        Or CHANGE. Just like the mass amounts of computer shops operating on small margins (MSY, you forgot about Umart! MSY prices without the massive queues and pretty good service!)

        • msy are cheap because they rework returned products and getting a refund from them is nearly impossible in those states without a trading tribunal.

          of course the service you get may be different to many of us?

        • -1

          @rolly2112:

          No they don't. Most computer products come with a manufacturer seal. When was the last time you bought something that was returned?

          And yes, getting a refund from them is hard, but they don't have to give you refunds. For warranty, they're pretty decent.

        • dear dear

          1. Earlier this year MSY tried to sell me a customer return as new.

          This fact was confirmed by an MSY staff member.

          1. In respect of a major failure according to australian trading laws you are totally entitled to a refund, especially if no replacement is offered, and time to repair is unreasonable.My experience of MSY warranty is that it is worthless.
        • +2

          @rolly2112:

          Earlier this year MSY tried to sell me a customer return as new.

          What ended up happening?

          In respect of a major failure according to australian trading laws you are totally entitled to a refund, especially if no replacement is offered, and time to repair is unreasonable.My experience of MSY warranty is that it is worthless.

          You're not entitled to a refund, you're entitled to a refund, repair or replacement, depending on what is available and offered to you. Your interpretation isn't quite correct, you don't get to choose.

        • 'When you have a major problem with a product, you have the right to ask for your choice of a replacement or refund. For a major problem with a service, you can choose to receive compensation for the drop in value below the price paid, or a refund.'

          http://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/…

          MSY don't have the CHOICE - the consumer DOES. If you want to act like Harvey Norman, MSY or anyone of a dozen others and pretend otherwise then you are breaking Australian consumer laws - perhaps you should correct your false statement?

        • +1

          @rolly2112:

          You can ask for a replacement or refund if the problem with the product is major.

          Replaced products must be of an identical type to the product originally supplied. Refunds should be the same amount you have already paid, provided in the same form as your original payment.

          The business may take into account how much time has passed since you bought the product considering the following factors:

          type of product
          how a consumer is likely to use the product
          the length of time for which it is reasonable for the product to be used
          the amount of use it could reasonably be expected to tolerate before the failure becomes noticeable.
          For a major problem with services you can cancel the contract and obtain a refund or seek compensation for the drop in value of your services provided compared to the price paid.

          It says you can ask for a refund, but the business makes the decision based upon the following factors. Otherwise you can simply buy a product, use it for a couple of years, break it and get a refund. That's ridiculous.

    • As far as I am concerned that would the result of both State and federal government failing to support Australian retail trading laws.

      In the last few years both have refused to support the consumer with the ACCC being the most culpable. The ACCC does not support the Australian consumer and should be abolished, as it is a huge waste of taxpayer monies. The federal government should run and provide Fair trading tribunals across all states since many no longer have them, and many states offer consumers no support at all ,instead they act only to protect big businesses.

      Since I have read too many cases of Australian governments acting against the consumer recently, seen people banned from stores for asking for refunds politely, and been frequently unable myself to obtain reasonable warranty services in Australia because of this deliberate all party Government policy, my money goes abroad because only then can I get warranty and support in a reasonable timely manner.

      Not so much choice as a logical decision forced upon me by the deliberate failure to enforce Australian laws.

      • Agree with you on the ACCC being a toothless tiger, sure, every now and then it does something big and gets on the news, but it's all sensationalism, but I doubt they'd do anything for the individual consumer.

        • The ACCC don't support the consumer - even when they have spent millions of taxpayer monies on legal costs allegedly spent securing consumer guarantees from guilty companies.

          In fact they support them by giving illegal advice to people.

  • +3

    The 'grey' from grey imports refers to the grey legal standing the customer has if there are issues with the product. Australia has, hands down, the best legal protections for consumers purchasing retail hard goods in the entire world, by a HUGE margin. Not as described or unfit for purpose legally required returns leave you completely protected from unscrupulous merchants looking to make a quick buck (or their minwage employees' ignorance).

    The biggest phrase though, which I am aware 99% of Australians don't even know about, is "Reasonable Expectation of Life-based Statutory Warranty". That is the single biggest reason to buy under Australian law. Apple got ripped by the ACCC for it, all the Wow/Coles owned stores know to toe the line where it is concerned, and once you get past the plebs in JB, GG or HN the ones in charge also know they have no legal standing to say no.

    TVs bought under proper Australian retail circumstances invariably come with a 5 year statutory warranty - regardless of manufacturer, size, style, vendor, display model, nada. No need to purchase any bogus 'extended warranties', you have an ironclad legal guarantee that states any manufacturing fault causing the purchase to last less than a reasonable person would expect it to last gets you a repair or replace as required. (TVs as 5 years is a minimum based on previous cases).

    iPads, Apple got annihilated by the ACCC for selling Apple Care, and telling people they only got 12 months without it. They now state on their website minimum 2 years, and leave a cop out saying they admit the law might allow for more (as someone in this industry I can tell you previous cases guarantee you 3 years, and they aren't likely to take the risk on anything under 4 after the advertisement limitations they copped after they were done for this and the can't-believe-its-not-4g rulings).

    Buy grey import? You take these substantial protections and piss them into the wind. You are gambling with the price difference as to whether something is going to go wrong - which is fine, and I do it myself quite often, you should however be aware of just what it is you are sacrificing.

    • +3

      Statutory warranty sounds good on paper, but I've yet to see anyone actually make a successful statutory warranty claim. The last time I heard anything about it was someone who got laughed out of a store, went and reported it to the ACCC and never heard from anyone ever again.

      Same goes to the "not as described" or "unfit for purpose" arguments, great in theory, but when it comes down to it, if the retailer doesn't play ball, and many don't, then your only real avenue is court, because the ACCC will not do anything about it.

      In theory, Australia has great laws, but they are just laws and unless you have the deep pockets to take things to court if they don't go your way, then the law is pretty meaningless isn't it?

      The law and the ACCC are great for getting great headlines, e.g. what they did with Apple, but for everyday consumers, they don't do a great job at all.

      • I beg to differ - there is an entire industry based on customers returning products to store because they change their minds, etc. There are companies that sort through all customer returns from Big W/Kmart/Target/etc; there are companies that buy these sorted containers. There are at least 20 containers worth of returns per month handled by these companies.

        • +1

          Wait, what? Change of mind returns get re-sold by the same shop you return them to. You might be thinking refurbished goods?

      • I have to agree
        most companies are pretty good with warranty claims, but I think this ACC and fair trading is all hype!

        what have they really done with apple? prices are still inflated, including the app stores
        they get a headline saying they are getting tough, but we don't see any difference lol

      • Spot on - australian consumer laws are words on bits of paper that Governments in Australia deliberately ignore.

        The consumer is left to fight alone by the bodies they fund, and if they have the guts to take it to court will usually be abused there on the grounds that it was unnecessary - because retailers don't mess with magistrates.

        You can't pick and choose which laws to enforce, and for whom, because then all laws become subjective.
        But that is the everday position of Australian federal government and State Government today.

  • The biggest cost factor in selling a product is the after sales support. Not only are manufacturers required to support a product within a "reasonable" expected lifespan of the product, they are also required to keep spares to provide proper repairs. On top of that, if a product is deemed a "lemon", that product must then be replaced with an equivalent model.

    Then there is an expectation that manufacturers repair their huge TVs in the house, or at the very least, pick it up and drop it off again once repairs are completed. On top of that, customers return products on a whim, which the manufacturers end up having to absorb the cost as they cannot resell returns as new.

    We have been importing products under various house brands for over ten years, and I can say that support costs for a product take up a very significant portion of the gross profit of that product. This is one of the reasons why there are some major brands closing up shop even though they had very large turnovers - eg. Teac, NEC, etc.

  • -3

    Paul, I mean this in the nicest possible way mate; but you seriously need to get yourself a life…even if it's a grey import. ;)

    • I don't think Paul needs to get a life. More likely than not, he's just doing his job by writing that piece.

    • +2

      StewBalls -I mean this in the nicest possible way mate - since this is a piece for discussion and you clearly have nothing to contribute but personal attack, the only person that seriously needs to get a real life is you - back to grey call of duty perhaps?

    • If you're going to be a (profanity), then you're better off not posting at all.

  • I always shop on the web for at least 10 price comparisons buy it with my platinum card get double warranty and the best deal. Of course i buy a lot of stuff you guys and gals post on Oz bargains

  • +2

    I normally buy products online. I wanted a Moto360 smartwatch but I had heard there were a lot of issues with the watches having stuck pixels so I decided to buy locally instead of online, thinking that if I got a dud, it would be easier to deal with a local supplier.

    Gizmodo reported the upcoming release date a week before it was due. When I read the article I emailed a few of the retailers to see when they would be getting stock. I thought I'd post my experiences here.

    Motorolla - I know that they aren't an actual retailer in Australia but thought I'd email these guys first to see if they knew who would be getting stock. The response I received stated that there was no current release date for the Nexus 9. I hadn't asked about the Nexus 9 … I had asked about the Moto360. After a bit of back and forth they realised their mistake but still couldn't give me any information as they didn't even know when the Australian release date was.

    JB Hifi - Quick response but totally unhelpful. I was told that they don't know what stock they are getting until they physically receive it. Wonderful - no attempt to contact their suppliers or anything.

    Dick Smith - These guys were by far the worst of the lot. It took them 4 days to respond and their response was, "Yes you can use your dad's credit card to buy online …". I sent them a response, essentially telling them that they were useless and to not bother responding again.

    Harvey Norman - Harvey Norman Cannington was the only store that actually replied quickly and with a proper answer. A person called Jermaine responded, mentioned that they had gotten into contact with their suppliers and gave me a date for when they were expecting stock. I asked them if they would hold onto one for me and they were quite happy to do so.

    Now … I know that a lot of people don't like Harvey Norman … I am one of those people - mainly because of the whiney attitude of Gerry, "It's not fair!!". But if I decide that I'm going to pay a bit more to shop locally (which I do from time to time) and Harvey Norman has stock, I'll probably go to them first because I expect actual customer service if I am buying locally.

  • I personally switch between both grey and local (online) for a number of reasons. It's probably short-sighted of me, but nothing other than the % markup on goods and quality/knowledgable service enters my mind when buying within Australia.

    I certainly never expect to talk to a product expert when I enter HN, TGG, JB or Officeworks, etc…that's usually because prior experience (almost every time) tells me they know barely anything more than whats listed under the pricetag. Whether it's lack of interest in their own job or poor staff training I don't know. Eh, another story for another day. I also don't think about "Australian society" and quality of life when making a purchase decision. In fact, I completely agree that, in order for any small to medium retailer to stick around long term, it needs to think and react quickly and keep up with the times. Retail may die down, but its hardly anywhere near extinction; public holidays and Christmas are prime examples of when retail is booming. The main reasons people prefer to shop during THOSE times locally is beyond me. Perhaps they enjoy searching endlessly for carparks (or paying for parking over 2hrs), love shoulder-to shoulder crowds inside stores and a general expectation of faster self-checkout with lower service expectations. People must have time-sensitive needs, or be anal-retentive on using "credit card details" online to go down that path each year.

    My last few major purchases, where I got them from and why:

    1. EF 2x III lens extender - EGlobal (grey) best possible price. Not the msot technical of products and received my shipment within 3 days via DHL (who IMO are the best international couriers). I have only tested it on 1 lens and am trying to determine if its defective - my biggest and sole concern over anything electronic or technical hen buying grey…
    2. Canon EF Camera lenses: DigitalCameraGear.com.au - Aussie operating with 3-4% EXTREMELY small markup. Service is pretty decent and fast considering. Great communication and FULL Australian 2yr warranty versus having to send the lens back overseas (potentially) for warranty checks and huge time delays made these guys most attractive. Go either these guys, or DiscountCameras.com.au for AU stock…
    3. Canon DSLR - Had it on order from DCG (above), but as their ETA's from Canon were behind retail and left me in the dark, I ended up cancelling the order and saved even MORE $ and grabbed it at Teds Camera Shop and gave them a bogus price match figure similar to what DigiDirect were offering. The difference? Teds were happy to get a kit lens (and remove the lens) in order to sell me the body all boxed up and NEW, whereas DCG only received stock of kits and wouldn't separate.
    4. Another Canon DSLR - T-Dimension.com.au (Grey) - Best possible price shipped across any store from any country that shipped to Australia. I sold my 5yr old DSLR and bought this 2013 model with extra money to spare in the end. Warranty was offered if needed and express DHL shipping which took 2 days to get to me. Brilliant! Although, their service is really crap, you get 1 line responses and their consultants via their ebay hotline don't understand English at all.
    5. Galaxy Note 10.1 2014 - BingLee.com.au (AU stock) - Tried to price-match this with the only known retailer in VIC who had stock - HN. Their service was deployable, price was close to $200 more for AUS stock (not grey) and when I asked 2 diff HN stores to pricematch BingLee, one said "OK, guy buy from them?!" the other store said "We choose who we will price match, we won't do it against them". No worries your loss in BingLee's gain.

    Surprising there, more AU stock or Aussie purchases than grey, but it's not just price. Eg: I paid a little more to buy my Canon lenses from DCG than Discount Cameras that both operate online, but you cant call DC, you can call and chat to DCG and as one of the oldest sayings go: People really will buy from PEOPLE (or places) they like. Personable service and advice was needed at the time for the Lens/camera - and DCG were able to offer it unlike DC.

  • Interesting thread. Not paying tax is an interesting point. You have to factor in that working standards are lower for greys than Australia. However, we are lucky to have the power of choice and should exercise this after doing their research and threads like this help.

    Could greys be taxed somehow? Or would that open up a can of worms with the Australian Consumer Law? I cannot see grey importers wanting to honouring that…

    I've just purchased my first grey import as it was far cheaper than local. It's possible local could have matched the price had I waited for a bargain similar to the double Canon cashback, but sometimes you need to buy rather than wait.

    • +1

      You buy a Canon camera lens made in Japan.

      Grey import:

      1. Product made in Japan
      2. Canon Japan takes a cut
      3. Lens is shipped to a Hong Kong shop, then you buy it online and get direct shipping

      Official import:

      1. Product made in Japan
      2. Canon Japan takes a cut
      3. The official importer in Australia takes another cut
      4. Lens is shipped to Australian store, and you then buy it

      Apart from the tax issue (no GST), why would you want to insert another middleman into the transaction? I know it's a difficult thing to say in Australia as hundreds of thousands of Australians are employed to be middlemen, inserting their 30% take into the supply chain, but it's a cost that is very easy to cut and ultimately it delivers little to no value to you as a customer.

      The working conditions for the factory employees in Japan are the same. They don't work more hours for less pay because they're making a lens for Canon China than Canon Australia.

      As to the tax issue, many large overseas corporations pay little if any corporate tax in Australia. See the recent leaked documents about sweet deals corporates such as Apple and IKEA have with Luxembourg. It's only us 'little people' who seem to get chased for every tax dollar and we bring the wrath of Gerry Harvey upon us if we seek to minimise tax too.

      • +1

        Why is there no importer in Hong Kong?

      • Companies with exclusive distribution rights here add immense margins to the end product. They get the manufacturer to pressure overseas etailers so that they are unable to sell the product directly to Aussie customers at their much lower prices. One example of many is Asics.

        A related matter is digital products that cost 50-100% more here in Australia compared to the States, even though the average net household income in America is higher than it is here.

    • You have to factor in that working standards are lower for greys than Australia.

      I agree with Cluster above, whether you buy grey or whether you buy it from Australia, it's still the same product that comes out of the same factory, made by the same people who are paid the same amount. It's the same production line, at the end of the day.

      • True, but are the people getting paid for grey importers getting paid a decent wage/working in a safe environment/have workplace rights?

        I am just asking these questions for a healthy debate, as above I've bought greys, so I've voted with my wallet. I think we need to vote this way as the margin is too high. BUt for the the standards the we expect as Australians, and as pointed out in this thread, I can see why we do get charged more. Not saying it needs to be as much, but interesting none the less.

  • +1

    I buy local as I know my consumer rights with local stores - if something is faulty, it is the responsibility of the retailer to follow up. However, as already stated by the OP (and virtually every OZBer), there is a limit to how much more I am willing to pay. For me, it is 15% more than places like DWI/eGlobal/Kogan/you know what I'm getting at.

    The OP assumes (or omits) the only retailer in Australia is JB/HN/generic big name shop. I like visiting specialist shops and that's where I am happy to pay the 15% extra. More often than not, when I visit these stores, I am dealing directly with the owner.

    I don't disagree with the OPs notion whatsoever when it comes to items oligopolized by the corporates. I'm glad the stranglehold on TV prices are virtually destroyed. Those big corporates didn't offer a hint of discretion or consolation when they were ripping us off.

    • +2

      I buy local as I know my consumer rights with local stores - if something is faulty, it is the responsibility of the retailer to follow up.

      I'd say Australian retailers should watch out if this is their only strength. Some retailers, e.g. Amazon, provide great warranty service. In fact, I recently had something that broke which I bought from them. I went online, clicked a couple of buttons and they emailed me a shipping label. I shipped it back to them and they shipped me out a new one, great work Amazon! That's a lot better than many Australian retailers I know.

      The OP assumes (or omits) the only retailer in Australia is JB/HN/generic big name shop. I like visiting specialist shops and that's where I am happy to pay the 15% extra. More often than not, when I visit these stores, I am dealing directly with the owner.

      Yeah, specialty shops are nice, but they're becoming more and more few and far between, unfortunately. But I do concur with you here, they're great when they're still around.

      I don't disagree with the OPs notion whatsoever when it comes to items oligopolized by the corporates. I'm glad the stranglehold on TV prices are virtually destroyed. Those big corporates didn't offer a hint of discretion or consolation when they were ripping us off.

      Yep, and I must say a big part of that is due to grey importers who are offering great products at much discounted prices as well as warehouses which sell things for a fraction of the cost as the big retailers.

  • +1

    Although I AGREE with a lot of what you wrote, in section 1, point 3 is WRONG.
    Also as a continuance of that in section 2 point 1 is also WRONG.

    As an independent IT consultant who sells retail items, if you buy from us, you ARE supporting a local Australian Business. I will admit your argument about Kogan (and for example JB) is valid, and true grey imports, where an Australian business imports from other countries while abiding by import duties etc, MOST on-line sales where people buy in particular electronic items are in NO WAY supporting anything Australian. More likely man in Hong Kong working from his home. In cases where you buy on-line YOU actually end up being the grey importer.

    And in Section 2 point 1 - NO, Retailers and Distributors are usually NOT trying to rip people off. There are exceptions sure, but in general, distributors mark up on volume to the tune of about 5%. As for the retailers - sure the big guys like HN, JB, GG, DS DO have a lot more mark up, OFFSET by sheer volume bulk pricing, but for the average small business like myself, I'd be EXTREMELY lucky to ever get 25% mark up, usually around 10% but more often than not only 5% also. The get fully authorized and warranted products I MUST buy from authorized distributors. I usually have 3 or 4 distributors for each item I sell to get the absolute best price, then I get to compete with the likes of your mass retailers first, who buy items for far less, and on top of that I have to check on-line and see whether I can match there also. It is completely usual for me to keep $50-$80 in my pocket for a $2000 notebook sale.

    I will not even begin to go in to the "exclusives" and "clearance dumping" that goes on.

    This wasn't always like this don't get me wrong. Up to about 2005 it was possible to make a decent living.

    Just want to make sure everyone here understands that if you think ALL retailers have huge markups and rip people off such as this original poster seems to think - try running a retail business in this sector for a while. Those comments were FAR too general and shows lack of knowledge.

    As I mentioned, the other points he made were quite valid though.

    • +1

      Just want to make sure everyone here understands that if you think ALL retailers have huge markups and rip people off such as this original poster seems to think - try running a retail business in this sector for a while.

      I don't think this at all, it's a gradual rip-off. What happens is that the manufacturer probably charges more in a market like Australia because they can and then there are middle-men who all take their cut and then it goes to the retailer who takes their cut as well. So the end result is that the customer gets ripped off because a bunch of middle-men are taking them for a ride.

      I'll give you an example. Say you need some electrical work done and the electrician comes and he tells you that he needs a guy to come in to have a look at the switchboard and then another guy to come in and look at the wiring…etc. All totally unnecessary, yet each of those guys take a cut. It's the same thing in retail, too many middle-men who take cuts and add nothing.

      As an independent IT consultant who sells retail items, if you buy from us, you ARE supporting a local Australian Business. I will admit your argument about Kogan (and for example JB) is valid, and true grey imports, where an Australian business imports from other countries while abiding by import duties etc, MOST on-line sales where people buy in particular electronic items are in NO WAY supporting anything Australian. More likely man in Hong Kong working from his home. In cases where you buy on-line YOU actually end up being the grey importer.

      Well, in this case, the question I would ask is why should I support you over a guy in Hong Kong if he's able to sell me the same product for a cheaper price?

      Same argument as with buying cars - would you simply buy a Holden to "support Australian jobs" if better cars are available for better prices? Clearly the public don't - hence why Holden is closing down production here.

      This wasn't always like this don't get me wrong. Up to about 2005 it was possible to make a decent living.

      Times are changing, global economy means a lot of people are losing their jobs and having to move onto something else. But either way, this is the fault of the guys above you. They're ripping you off, as well as your customers. If they didn't take a massive cut from it, then you'd be able to sell the product for the same price as the guy in Hong Kong + GST, which would probably work out not too different after accounting for shipping.

      Those comments were FAR too general and shows lack of knowledge.

      I wasn't having a go at you, I'm having a go at the model which forces you to have to sell at a higher price, the guys above you taking a cut, which is making you go out of business because it's often better value to buy elsewhere.

      • "Well, in this case, the question I would ask is why should I support you over a guy in Hong Kong if he's able to sell me the same product for a cheaper price?"

        Not asking you to. This isn't about buying Australian. I just got my back up when you said in a generic way that "Australian retailers, especially the big guys like HN, JB HiFi and others, as well as Australian distributors are ripping everyone off".

        I'm not sure about the big guys. I don't see any HN, JB etc stores close down so I assume they're doing OK, especially Gerry, but I absolutely do NOT rip people off ever.

        "1: an act or instance of stealing : theft; also : a financial exploitation
        2: a usually cheap exploitive imitation"

        http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rip-off

        ALWAYS I buy stuff OFFICIALLY through the correct channels to activate Australian warranties from the manufacturer, and yes, pay more than the guy in Hong Kong is selling it for. If this is the case I MUST add SOMETHING otherwise there is no point. Hence sometimes I only make $50 on a $2000 item.

        Not crying about it, don't want sympathy, but would just like recognition that I'm not ripping anyone off, I'm simply earning a living and as you say slave to the manufacturers and distributors unfortunately.

        And luckily no, I'm not going out of business, simply because although the mass merchants can move boxes at rates and prices I cannot match, luckily when the box gets to the end user, I'm the one called out to make it work. Especially in small business, where saving $50 on a notebook is not as important as having it set up properly in their intranet, with their NAS and cloud apps for example.

        For that reason the $50 is no problem, I make up for it in labour.

        But yes, it would be great if all manufacturers would give us a level playing field so local business can compete internationally. I know it's not going to happen. I'm not sure what it will do for the economy or anything in the future if things go on, I'm not that smart, but my thoughts are that with more money flowing out of Australia (100% to Hong Kong instead of 80% manufacturer, 5% local distributor, 5% freight companies for the logistics, and let's say 10% retailer), surely it cannot be good? Your car manufacturer is a good example. I think it's sad to see Ford and Holden go personally. No they can't compete with Korea etc because labour costs/cost of living is HUGE in Australia (Mel/Bris/Syd are all in the top 20 most expensive places to live).

        We can never compete with that. No-one can survive at $10 per hour any more. It's a vicious cycle. We pay more, therefore must earn more, labour costs are higher therefore price of items are higher. Rinse. Repeat.

        I'm not sure what the answer is but sending our dollar overseas while the mining industry is declining I definitely don't thing will be helping :)

      • I am a Grey Importer

        What a great read, applaud “p1 ama” for your efforts, however I think the general consumer has been brainwashed for many decades ………….. undoubtedly most of the human species are creatures of habit, which the retail giants prey um ….. rely on!

        I suppose you could call me a “Grey Importer”, a venture which began 12 months ago through a collaboration of a hobby, technical mind, thirst for knowledge, loss of employment and a couple of disappointing purchases from Ebay! …………………….. f@#k’n criminals! ….. Ebay Sellers (some) should be held accountable for what they DO NOT tell you in the descriptions, but let’s not go there.

        My little business is a very small operation and only offer a few products, at present just enough to pay the odd bill and eat occasionally. This is where I want it to be now, for very good reasons.

        After reading this forum I found, people’s opinions, concerns, questions etc, very informative. In support of p1 ama ‘s views, having formed many of the same opinions and views before starting this venture, provides a foundation for what I hope to achieve. Noting the venture is still in infancy & progress thus far is satisfactory, hopefully I can provide some confidence in addressing the myths, questions & concerns we all have and is not intended to be a “Product Promotion”.

        The products I offer are sourced from multiple suppliers, in some cases, purchased as parts and then assembled in my workplace. Not the most cost-effective approach to assemble this way, but justifiable none-the-less. The opportunity serves as a Quality Control measure to ensure the customer receives the product purchased, free from defects, tested, pre-configured (if required), packaged correctly & securely. Gives me peace-of-mind also.

        I take Pride in what I do, Countless hours of Research is performed before a product is considered, Samples are Obtained, Trialled & Tested, Applications for Use, Operation/Function Is Mastered for Tech Support, Customer Support is Offered. Identical Products are used in my home daily, Stand by the Quality of the Products.

        Suppliers are very supportive, adequate communication, provide technical assistance & information. Initial consultation with suppliers is comprehensive, establish certain criteria for both parties including warranty terms etc. An occasion where honesty or trust is compromised I will source another supplier immediately. May seem callus, however I have Zero tolerance to dishonesty & rarely offer a 2nd chance.

        The concerns about warranty regarding “Grey Imports” is voiced among customers, however I agree with p1 ama’s comments above, considering most Retail Giants will advise to contact the Manufacturer, passing the buck so to speak. My situation differs greatly due to product assembly aspect and possibly due to current small business turnover, establishing favourable terms was relatively simple. In most cases the item is returned to me, tested to identify the fault, I communicate with supplier which could result in immediate replacement if in stock (local).
        Only once in the last 12 months an item was returned which failed within 24hrs, (won’t elaborate let’s just say “questionable”) ……. Supplier honoured the warranty instantly & the customer received a replacement item the same afternoon.

        This is not a contest and appears as if I am trying to compare an Apple to a Boeing 747. There is always risk, the customer is the only one who can decide if the risk is an acceptable risk.
        As a Grey Importer I am taking a considerable risk, however such factors as research, test samples, product assembly, testing etc, is greatly reducing that risk (Risk Control), resulting in a risk I am willing to accept. …………………………….. and the customer can be confident in their purchase.

  • How much of this is stats and how much of it is your impression?

    I agree with a few point and disagree with a few.

  • +1

    You can't necessarily safely assume that grey imports are identical. Tech products probably are but things like food, cigarettes and other small value products tend to have different quality based on the target market.

    I think you also underestimate the value of Australian warranty. Most of the time when you buy from an international seller you need to pay the return shipping cost if it breaks and it often makes it not worth it to return the product because international shipping from Australia is so expensive.

    Warranties for grey imports are often a lot shorter because you don't have Australian Consumer Law to rely on. Just because an item has a 1 year warranty in Australian doesn't take away your statutory warranty which is often much longer.

    That said I would never buy harvey normans or dick smiths regular prices. On sale though if a similar price to overseas it's a ways better deal.

    • Tech products probably are but things like food, cigarettes and other small value products tend to have different quality based on the target market.

      Completely agree, which is why most of us still buy food locally don't we?

      Warranties for grey imports are often a lot shorter because you don't have Australian Consumer Law to rely on. Just because an item has a 1 year warranty in Australian doesn't take away your statutory warranty which is often much longer.

      ACL is good in theory, how good is it in practice? Have you ever made a statutory warranty claim? I've never heard of anyone who has. The last I heard of it was someone who got fobbed off by JB. He went in because a TV he bought 2 years ago doesn't turn on anymore and mentioned that it's covered by statutory warranty and ACL…etc. The manager pretty much told him to get lost, to which he said he was contacting the ACCC, the manager and his crew had a laugh after the guy left.

      I had a laugh too, because the law is designed to protect people, but unless you have deep pockets and you're willing to take action yourself, the ACCC does nothing.

      • If you are persistent enough with the merchant generally you can get a successful outcome, I have never had to myself but I do have friends that have and Apple has been forced to up their iPhone warranty from one year to 2 years because of it. I have even heard that they will fix an iPhone after the 2 years as well.

        • despends which state you live in - one of the few with a tribunal you got a chance - if not companies like harvey and msy will tell you to go away and never come back.

    • Unfortunately the value of an Australian warranty rests on government enforcement. The people you vote for couldn't care less about them - the ACCC just take tax dollars and ignore the absence of everyday enforcement. When the ACCC starts fining states for non-enforcement of trading laws as an anticompetititve policy things may improve. Its now redundant because its totally given up on direct enforcement to protect consumers, even against companies it holds orders against.

  • Grey Import = no TRS = poor deal.
    Kills Kogan for me

  • It depends whether its a big item like TV, Fridge etc Those I will buy local. Other devices like tablet, phones usually get a better price overseas and hardly use warranty claims.

    Sometimes it makes no sense to me that you get no service if at all at Brick and Mortar so might as well import.

    • Absolutely correct.

  • +2

    It all boils down to cost of living.

    No matter how competitive an Australian business wants to be, at the end of the day he has to buy food in Australia, pay Australian powerbills, get his car serviced at an Australian mechanic, buy an Australian house, pay Australian interest rates on his loans, etc etc.

    One can argue endlessly how business will shut if they do not retain their competitive edge because consumers will always pick something cheaper. Laws of natural selection will come in again, and the only surviving businesses will be the large chain shops with storefront and big appliances to supplement their profits and the grey importers. Not sure what the effect of that will be (we can kind of see it now), but its pretty hard to avoid.

    I am guilty of buying grey whenever possible, there is no moral highground I can take to justify my penny pinching. Afterall aren't most of us getting paid according to Australian living standards?

    What I can hope is that the market for greys become so large that it requires better regulation and customer protection.

  • +1

    "Reputable Grey Import companies such as Kogan, DWI, eGlobal, Expansys and the like all have great reviews on Whirlpool and myself and many other people have purchased successfully from them."

    Not me though :(
    I got a deal with a Nexus 9 and tablet keyboard. The keyboard does not work and they refuse to return it for another… 0/10

    So in light of this, Australian stock is always better than grey for me. You just have to wait for the right sale.

    • Which company did you get this through?

      • +1

        Expansys :(
        I should have just waited for the next eBay sale in hindsight.

        • Kogan do come under Australian law for the selling of goods. They've recently been fined by the ACCC for hiking their prices just before reducing them in a "sale".

          Expansys also come under Australian law. Threaten to go to the ACCC if you product is still within the warranty period.

        • I'm not sure if that would work. They are claiming the keyboard was free with the keyboard.

        • @01001011:
          It doesn't matter if it's free or not. If that was the case, companies could sell you a phone case for $800 with a free phone. Your phone case would have a warranty but the phone wouldn't.

          Now if the keyboard was actually free in that they gave it to you without you having to purchase anything, they wouldn't have to cover it. A product isn't free if it's conditional on the sale of another product.

    • I really hope for you your Nexus 9 itself does not start crashing when playing OpenGL games and the battery level approaches 50%:

      https://productforums.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/nexus/MP7OD…

      Its started happening on my second tablet (1st one returned in 90 day DOA period due to sticking gyro) unfortunately AFTER the 90 day period and due to it being from US source, HTC will not warrant it.

      Well to be exact I managed to get HTC USA tell me they'll replace it but they will not ship back to Australia, but HTC Australia simply won't touch it.

      Lesson learnt. Due to the fact I've had two HTC Desire phones also fail on me and although replaced after sending back and forth twice where they just flashed the ROM I:

      1> Will NEVER EVER buy any HTC product again here or otherwise.
      2> When buying overseas (or grey importer) make sure the item is globally warranted.

      But in most cases now I'll go for:

      3> Pay the extra and buy it locally.

      • +1

        My last mobile and tablet were bought in Australia, but the price difference this time was too huge to pass, I guess I got greedy.
        I usually use my tablet for Netflix, web, and YouTube so hopefully I'll have no issues…
        But if I do, I'm f'd.

        • +1

          So they just emailed me saying they are going to send me another keyboard, hopefully this one has no issues.
          So it looks good now.

        • I've only ever had it crash (the same way) once while watching a TV show using BS player. It was down to 18% battery or so. I can almost live with that.

          It really seems to be an issue with heavy graphics games and battery approaching 50%. It is quite reproducible.

          I think if you have not seen the problem yet you probably won't. I have my fingers crossed for you.

        • @01001011: Excellent. I must say I've had NO problems with the keyboard whatsoever.

          Hopefully this one is in perfect working order for you also.

  • i would love to support Australia (even tho i am chinese with student visa), but man the price difference is just too big a lot of time….

  • Is eBay an alright grey market seller? Especially for mobile phones?

  • Thanks for the post about Grey market goods

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