NEW CAR: Holden Barina Spark vs Mitsubishi Mirage

Hoju on 12/08/2014 - 20:35

Hey guys,

We have a Mercedes A Class, 2001 and while it's so well designed it's a bit like a tardis (small on the outside, heaps of space on the inside), the bloody thing keeps having problems and goddamn if parts aren't ridiculously expensive. Last time I managed to source a $3000 part from a wreckers for $250 but that was just luck, as I made about 15 phone calls to find it.

So we're thinking let's go new, get something with a warranty for under $13k that will be cheap to service, cheap to fix and cheap to maintain.
I know Toyota is known for having really affordable parts and servicing, but what about Holden and Mitsubishi?
I'm specifically thinking of the amazing deals they have on the Mirage at the moment, and maybe the Holden Barina Spark.

@starionx (does that mention thing work here?) bought the Mirage a while back, wondering how you are finding it? Only problem is we'd have a baby seat and booster seat in the back…

Any thoughts would be awesome.
Thanks

Automotive

Comments

    • Hoju on 12/08/2014 - 20:39
      +6

      Surely that would have similar issues as the Mercedes - ridiculous service and repair costs?

      We've had a Volvo, VW and Mercedes and all have been 'good cars' until something stupid goes wrong with them, as simple as an air con compressor, and it costs >$1000 to fix.

      Admittedly before we sat in the A Class I tried a Honda Jazz and it felt like a crappy tin can, so I'm not sure what to expect from a mirage / barina…

      • sparkles on 12/08/2014 - 20:41
        +32

        If a Honda Jazz felt like a crappy tin can, a Barina/Mirage is gonna feel like tin foil.

        • Hoju on 12/08/2014 - 20:43

          Yeh guess I need a test drive… still, like I said, not much point driving a good/nice car if it ends up breaking the bank the moment something goes wrong…

    • Daabido on 14/08/2014 - 13:37
      +1

      Fiat 500 prices have gone up from $14k drive away to $17k.

    • [Deactivated] on 16/08/2014 - 22:14
      +1

      Haha..

      I paid $300 for my current car about 6 years ago and it hasn't need anything more then a service here and there in the 120,000km it has done in those years (300k total)

    • cannedhams on 17/08/2014 - 18:34
      +2

      Please dont buy a POS Fiat 500. Shockingly unreliable car.

  • modsec802 on 12/08/2014 - 20:47
    +9

    Brand new Yaris, Mazda2 and VW Polo all coming out in the next 2-3 months.
    Whilst these will be in the ~15k driveaway price range, I would imagine you'll get some really good deals on these discontinued models.
    Already Yaris is available on CarSales at 13800 driveaway brand new/near new: link
    And Mazda2's are on there for 13990 driveaway.

    • Daabido on 14/08/2014 - 13:38

      The new models will be more than $15k drive away, more like $17k+.

  • Hoju on 12/08/2014 - 20:50
    +1

    Interesting. The Yaris looks good but not the VW - I will be staying away from Euro cars sadly, as much as I love them… one day when I can afford it.

    Any perspectives on parts/servicing costs for Toyota vs Mazda vs Mitsubishi vs Nissan vs Holden? I thought Japanese cars were all about the same but it seems Toyota might have leapt in front of others.

    • modsec802 on 12/08/2014 - 21:03
      +10

      Toyota insist on 6 month 10,000km (whichever is sooner) servicing but cap for 3 years at $130 per service ($780 over 3 years)
      Mazda now have 10,000 or 12 months which is better. Assuming you do 10,000km or less per year, a Mazda2 will cost you $814 in three years (with only three visits to the dealer - saving you time taking it in)
      The Mirage is 15,000km or 12 months, and $290 per service, so $870 over three years and again only three visits.
      Holden currently have three years free servicing, which means 4 services at $185 ($740) are included for FREE at the moment. The Barina can be found for about $13k too.
      It seems the Nissan Micra services are every 6 months and by far the most expensive ($1654 over 3 years).

      Another option to look at is the Hyundai i20. Hyundai are very good cars now and there's a new model i20 being released in coming months.

      The best site for car reviews is caradvice.com.au

      • Hoju on 12/08/2014 - 21:10

        Wow thank you for that. Amazing info.
        I think I might stroll down Pacific Highway Artarmon and just drive them all and maybe that would be the best first step, but I hadn't even considered the i20 or Yaris, as I thought they would be too expensive. Guess you never know with new models on their way :)

        Out of interest, when do the 'run out' sales usually start? I seem to remember watching the cricket in summer and there's always sales of the current year's stock to clear before new stock come in, but are you saying that 2015 models are due quite soon? (and the 2014 runout sales might come with them?)

        • modsec802 on 12/08/2014 - 21:13
          +2

          They are already in 'run out' mode but when the new MY15 models officially in coming months I imagine they'll get a little cheaper.

          You can get a i20 for around 11-12k driveway brand new, carsales.com.au is your friend, choose only new cars and sort by price, amazing what you can find:

          this

      • Cluster on 14/08/2014 - 15:51

        Does Toyota insist on 6 monthly servicing in the car's manual or is that just what the dealership wants?

        Every time I serviced my car at my Mitsubishi dealership they slapped on a sticker that I should come in after 6 months or 7,500km. Mitsubishi Japan (the people who built the car, so should know something about the matter) stated 12 months/15,000km was fine. So that's what I did despite the cries from the dealership that I should come in much sooner.

        Servicing costs are an important area many often overlook. My $28k Mitsubishi was cheaper to service than a relative's $16k Hyundai by a large margin. Gold plating the service costs is a popular way of recovering the initial purchase price of a cheap vehicle.

        • Hoju on 14/08/2014 - 16:41

          I think from the post above the 6 month is required for a Toyota but the cost is half or less at $130 so that's not bad.

        • This Guy on 15/08/2014 - 02:16

          @Greenspoon:

          Six months is only for commercial vehicles. Modern oil/filters last more than 15000km/3yrs under normal conditions.

          Yearly or 15km services are fine.

          If a dealer tells you a brand new car needs to be serviced every six months, they are lying. If you really want that car, try another dealership. You need to be able to trust your sales person.

          That said, most new cars have a free 3000km/3 month checkup to make sure your car is fine.

  • Peace Maker on 12/08/2014 - 21:44

    FWIW, I had a family member get hit by a truck and wrote off her near new model Barina. She walked away with no injuries. Could be just lucky, but I think that speaks pretty good of the safety standards of most modern cars. It wasn't an economic write off, before anyone asks. Roof was creased.

    I don't think the euro cars make sense in our market. Parts and labour kills it for us. That might change in the future. I'd love a luxury euro car, but same as you OP, I'd go for something popular in our domestic market first.

    • tko6070 on 12/08/2014 - 21:50
      -5

      That's the problem right there, marketing has created a perception of Euro cars as luxury by default, a VW Golf is a bog standard hatch in the Euro, its not designed for our climate, market or drivers. If you do a timing belt, that's it, send it to the wreckers!

      • Peace Maker on 13/08/2014 - 08:46
        +2

        I don't understand the link you're trying to make between the trim level and the cost of parts? And since you mentioned it, regardless of the perception of luxury, it's hard to deny that they (euro cars) are simply a more expensive vehicle to maintain, especially as they get older.

        I'm not hating on them, as I said above I'd like to own one, I personally can't justify the expense.

      • [Deactivated] on 14/08/2014 - 01:09

        I guarantee that if you break a timing belt on ANY car, it is most likely going to the wreckers unless you are foolhardy enough to put in a new engine.

        • zeomega on 14/08/2014 - 18:07
          +1

          Not all cars are interference engines. A non-interference engine will not damage anything if a timing belt snaps. All you need to do is replace timing belt and you're good to go.

          But this is getting more rare with stricter emissions.

    • BuuBox on 14/08/2014 - 09:50

      The current Barina scores very well in NCAP testing.

      The current Barina Spark doesn't… A 10 year old Ford Fiesta fares better.

      The Mirage scores quite well, although you're always safer in a bigger car (everything else being equal).

      • Hoju on 14/08/2014 - 09:53

        Yeh he mirage has a 5 star rating which is pretty impressive.

      • This Guy on 15/08/2014 - 02:27
        +2

        Bigger cars are heavier. Heavier cars need more crumple zone to counter the extra weight.

        Heavier cars are harder to stop in a crash, meaning you have a higher chance of going through old style barricades.

        SUVs and 4x4's are more likely to roll (in a crash or just driving around a corner too fast).

        Bigger is not always safer.

    • [Deactivated] on 16/08/2014 - 23:55

      On that note, is a fiat 500/punto expensive to own? (I'd really like to know)

  • 2jzzzz on 12/08/2014 - 21:48
    +3

    I bought a brand new Yaris 2 years ago for $15500 drive away. The thing has been awesome. Snow trip, long trip to Brisbane, daily highway commute and city driving. Moved house twice and used it, fit so much in with seats folded down. Capped price servicing and 1.9% finance. I would be putting this up the top of your list. Any questions just ask.

    • Hoju on 13/08/2014 - 07:33

      That's great info to have. One thing we were worried about is long trips in a small car. Screaming engines on the freeway, uncomfy seats and rattling tinny doors

  • MegaSuperUltraTight on 12/08/2014 - 21:55
    +1

    Barina and mirage are really plain and boring, would rather get a Holden cruze or a ford fiesta. Why not get a 1 or 2 year old car? Like a Toyota Carolla or Mazda 3? Save thousands. Yaris holds it's resell value and never have major issues for first 150,000 km or more, because I had one years ago.

    • modsec802 on 12/08/2014 - 22:19
      +2

      I've been looking but most 1-2 year old cars are only $1000 or so less than a very well negotiated new car price.
      I don't know if that's because people don't negotiate enough new or have unrealistic selling prices, but I definitely couldn't find many bargains in this space.
      With the incentives car dealers have to sell new models, I think that's still worth considering.

      • Cluster on 14/08/2014 - 16:19

        I too have found that 1 to 2 year old cars are usually offered only $1000 cheaper than buying brand new. Sometimes the difference was as little as $500. New cars have all sorts of delivery costs added but used attracts stamp duty too.

        The tired old saying that you lose 30% of a new vehicles' value by driving it off lot only seems to apply if the buyer wants to drive straight back on again and sell the vehicle.

    • Hoju on 13/08/2014 - 07:31

      Right now plain and boring is about the best option we've got!

      The issue for us with used is lack of decent warranty. 5 year warranty on a new mirage is pretty amazing. Add capped price servicing and roadside assistance and there are some really sweet deals.

    • This Guy on 15/08/2014 - 02:29

      Holden Cruze's are tiny inside. Every one I know with one regrets it.

      • rodericb on 17/08/2014 - 12:05

        For the internal size? My sister has one - I will grab it and see how it compares with my accord euro for size.

  • windale on 13/08/2014 - 08:00
    +2

    The mirage is 3 cylinder and the one we had was a lemon and ended up going back. it's very gutless too.
    I used to have an older Barina, it was awesome and it was a sad day when it went to the wreckers.

    make sure when you test drive you go up and down some steep hills.

    • This Guy on 14/08/2014 - 01:00

      My mate is very happy with his Mirage. He said it "easily hits 160". This bloke's old car was a late 90's Commodore. And the only way out of our town is up steep hills.

      But you are right, OP should take it for a test drive and see if it suits them.

  • bradsmrbetty on 13/08/2014 - 08:18
    +2

    Go to productreview.com.au and compare the cars from people that actually own the cars you're considering.
    They're going to be a few people that hate a brand of car and make up stuff, keep that in mind.
    Barina is made in the Daewoo factory and rebadged to a Holden, if you get a good one, great, if not you're in for a headache.
    I know a few people that have the Barina they have had issues with the sensor not allowing them to reverse in the auto, once again this is only my experience.

    My uncle works for a big multi dealership in SA. The mechanics apperenty rate 1 Mazdas, 2 Hyandai, 3 Mitsubishi, 4 Holdens

    Mitsubishi are generally very plain, the paint is thin and the interiors are apparently easy to mark and dent, however generally they don't break down.

    Mazdas are expensive to service and have to go in every 6 months. Top cars though

    Fords Focus and Fiesta are European. Parts are expensive and the brake pads are sometimes very soft compared to cars made for the Australian market

    Hyandai's have come a long, long way from the excel, generally a good car with good features these days.
    I personally own an i30 and Holden both have great so far.

    The Wife owned a Suzuki Swift, the Alto is ok I guess.

    Hope this helps

    • Hoju on 13/08/2014 - 09:04

      This is really great thank you.

      No Toyota in the mechanics' rankings?! Or not sold there I guess?

      • bradsmrbetty on 13/08/2014 - 09:56

        I have owned two Toyotas however they where from the very late 80s. I can't say if modern Toyotas are as bullet proof as the old ones.
        You summarized correctly the dealer doesn't sell them.

        I have ridden in a few modern fleet Camerys and Corollas, personally the Camerys have hard seats and wear you out more over a longer journey,they will wipe the floor in terms of comfort of a Barina or equivalent.
        Wheelbase and suspension wise they're set up for longer the journey.

        Difference between a small car like the i20 and say a falcon is more apparent on country b road, if you're not doing too much non freeway driving, then a smaller car might be more suited to your needs.

        Keep in mind some second hand cars don't have transferable extended factory warranty.
        What I mean is if a car has a standard 3 year warrenty and a manufacturer offers extended warranty of two years as a promotion to the original owner. If they sell the car 12 months later, the extended part of the warrenty may not transfer to the second owner.

        • Hoju on 13/08/2014 - 10:50

          Thanks, good to be aware of all that with a used car warranty!

  • dp1 on 13/08/2014 - 09:16

    What about a 2012 Camry? They have a 9 month service interval so 5 services in 4 years at $130 each. Carsales shows a few available under $15k so you could negotiate as it is such a common car. With 2 children you may outgrow a small car quite soon.

    • Hoju on 13/08/2014 - 09:19

      How's the warranty on used cars from a dealer?

      Even a reliable car like a Camry can have something serious go wrong and then we would be in the same boat we've been in for the last few cars. At least with a new warranty you get coverage for a good 3-5 years.

      • bradsmrbetty on 13/08/2014 - 11:13

        In regards to warranty and warrenty claims it really depends on your dealer and manufacturer. Do your research here of all things.
        Chinese branded cars, the dearlers and manufacturers won't fix too much, if anything.
        Nissan as a manufacturer in recent years, terrible for warrenty claims.

        Holden mostly comes down to the dealership.

        Ford, well I never had any issues with getting a few small things fixed under warrenty.

        What I am saying is essential is warrenty is great, if they honor it.

  • dp1 on 13/08/2014 - 09:54

    You still have a year or more of manufacturer's warranty left on a 2012 car. Dealership warranties are not worth the paper they're written on.
    We have had 2 Aurions now with nothing at all go wrong, Toyota would be head and shoulders above anything else for reliability.

  • dp1 on 13/08/2014 - 09:57
    +2

    BTW Pickles auctions if you can get to them have a choice of 1 year old ex-fleet Toyotas, mainly Camrys and Corollas, any colour as long as it's white.

    • OBone on 13/08/2014 - 21:36
      +3

      Got my Toyota at Pickles over 12 years ago.
      It still had 1 month of a 3 year warranty to go and had done 60,000km.
      I had it inspected for defects by the NRMA after purchase to catch anything that might have been warrantable.
      They provided a report (nothing major, just some kind of subtle rattle in the motor that I hadn't heard).
      Took it to the local Toyota dealer who replaced an "idler gear"? and while they were there, the timing belt as well, even though it was not necessary … all under warranty.
      It's run like clockwork ever since and I'm still driving it.

  • Speckled Jim on 13/08/2014 - 18:48
    +3

    The Barina Spark and current "Mirage" are both terrible cars. Most reviews have said so.

    The Holden is so bad that if you recall the TV ad for it from a few years back…it basically admitted it was a turd. I still have a recording of it, so in years to come I could laugh at how hilariously stupid it was.

    "One day you'll wake up and know it's time for a change.

    A welcome change from the cute little small car.

    Five doors means…it's short-skirtable.

    You make the tough decisions.

    Grab the wheel with both hands, and kiss cute goodbye."

    It's decisions like THAT and many others prior and since, that have sunk Holden.

    Mitsubishi are fine; for them motor vehicles are almost a hobby. If they make a stinker they have many other revenue streams to offset any losses.

    My advice is test drive them if you must. After the A class they will feel like all nine circles of hell. But you may be tolerant if price is your primary concern. If not, spend a little extra on something decent from Japan, like the Suzuki Swift.

  • donedeed on 13/08/2014 - 19:03
    +1

    Have a look at the new 2014 Honda Jazz. I read that you've owned one in the past. But the standard features on the new model seem to be quite generous, and I think from what I remember, but they are around 20k
    I own a jazz myself, it's had absolutely no issues so far (4 years).

  • AMLagonda on 14/08/2014 - 01:51

    Odd, no one mentions the great Suzuki Swift :)

    Ok I didnt read the second last post to the end before posting that but really go and have a look at one.

  • Hoju on 14/08/2014 - 08:56

    Swift is on the list too but the issue is the tiny boot space. I'm not sure what's wrong with the Mirage. I've read lots of reviews and handling is consistently the only feature that gets panned, but having not driven it I'm not sure how that would feel or how significant that is. It gets commended for a roomy interior and boot capacity which are important.
    Guess I'm just wondering if these car gurus that review them and complain about 'handling' are talking about something that isn't really noticeable to your average A-B driver who just needs to get the kids around.

    Not to mention the bonus of price and 5 star ancap rating.

    Interior isn't an issue for me, the less fancy the better. And i guess being a little gutless is only a worry on freeways but pre-kids I used to only drive 40+ year old minis with 1L engines and enjoyed it fine.

    Anyway this input is all great now at least I know to try a yaris and swift and i20 to compare and see if the extra $2-3k is worth it, particularly bearing in mind resale value in years to come.

    • vid_ghost on 14/08/2014 - 10:51

      You can snap up an i30 Active Auto for $20,000 drive away right now! 5 years warranty and luxury bullet proof car
      Or get a demo for $19,000
      i20's are $15000 drive away Avoid Artarmon Hyundai they are a complete and utter ripp off
      Banks town Hyundai are the best
      http://peninsula.hyundai.com.au/ Check out there new car drive away prices listed on the site.. and then haggle from there.

  • lightningx3 on 14/08/2014 - 11:24
    +2

    Having never owned a Mirage or a Barina, I can't comment, but I can add my 2cents to some of some of the questions you've had about the Toyota Yaris.

    Firstly, my partner and I own a 2012 Yaris, 5 door hatch. At first - I wasn't a fan, as I was used to bigger, faster cars. But in all honesty, it's an amazing car.

    Firstly:

    • It's nice and economical. It eats about a third of what my falcon does, and sits around 5-6l/100kms.
    • I noticed you were concerned about long road trips. My partner lived in Queensland for 6 months and I drove her all the way from Adelaide and back again. It was smooth. There was plenty of power to overtake trucks, and it was pretty quiet too. I'm a tallish guy (6ft 1), but I had plenty of leg space and that was with my partner's entire life (about 300,000,000 pieces of clothing) in the back. It was great on fuel too. Cost about $70 to get to Melbourne on a road trip we did in 2013. The only thing I didn't like, was lack of cruise control, but I think this is an option you can get/install.
    • Boot space - alone, it's not huge. But it's a lot like a tardis. If you played tetris as a kid, there's plenty of space. Even better though, is when you knock down the back seats of the 5 door hatch. When buying furniture for her place in QLD, we fit, a disassembled Queensized Ikea Bed, a bar fridge, and a 1.2m x 1.2m table AND shelf, and us in the car. I won't lie - the bed length did make it a bit dangerous - but hey, it all fit, and pretty damn comfortably.
    • Reliability: We just hit 40k, and since it is my partner's car, she handles all the servicing etc. Which means, it never gets serviced. We had it serviced once at capped price, and I'm looking to take it in again - but even with the mistreatment (which I advise you not do of course), we've had no issues whatsoever.
    • From what I've seen from wreckers and just toyota in general, parts seem relatively accessible and cheap. I can't comment on what it might be like 10 years down the track though without Toyota in Australia anymore.
    • Kid friendly: Putting in a kid seat in the back for my niece was easy. It is a bit cramped though if you're fitting anyone else in the back in addition to the seat, who isn't the same size as my partner (5ft small Asian lol).

    On a side note: I would also +1 the Hyundai i20. I had the opportunity to drive one of these when I was in Perth, and it was nice and zippy. Personally, I liked the interior more than the Yaris, and it felt like a solid build. Not terribly exciting, but it felt smooth and stable.

    The Mazda 2 is a great car too, and one that can be found for real cheap. I helped a friend buy a 2012 Mazda 2, 5 door with only 30k on the clock for 8.5k second hand, which was an absolute steal. Definitely smaller than a Yaris though, but the engine's not bad, and it seems well built as well. Mazda, as far as I know, is relatively cheap to service + maintain.

    With the prices listed above though, I'd go for the Yaris. $13.5k is a great deal! We got our Yaris for $21k~.

    Edit: I should mention the handling of the Yaris. It handles well, and surprisingly doesn't understeer like you'd expect at high speeds. On our way to QLD, we took the Great Ocean Road and passed through maybe 200kms~ worth of mountain passes. It handled well and took the uphills nicely, but you do need to shift down to 3rd to get enough power to accelerate on really steep rises. Cornering was fine - it never slipped and we had a lot of weight in the car, and I wasn't going slow either :)

    • Cluster on 14/08/2014 - 13:50

      When I hired the i20 for a drive from Melbourne to Geelong I couldn't wait to return it. Easily the most uncomfortable car I have ever driven solely due to the driver's seat. Side bolsters pressed into my sides (and I'm not fat) and there's a weird metal bar at the bottom of the seat back that I could constantly feel.

      The six speed manual seemed a little pointless as the car still pushed 3000rpm at 100km/h in 6th. Would have been much more useful if 6th gear allowed the car to cruise highways at 2000rpm to save fuel.

    • Hoju on 14/08/2014 - 14:37

      Thanks for the Yaris experience. If I could find a new 2013 model being sold off cheap at a dealer then I would be happy. But not sure if the extra cash is worth it, though a test drive will tell.

      Interestingly even with the 2015 models around the corner, a few dealers still have 2013 Mirage models in stock. I'm not sure how they differ from the 2014 but it kind of makes you wonder if something is unpopular to that degree (or else was just overstocked)

  • Cluster on 14/08/2014 - 12:38
    +1

    You have my sympathy in owning an early model A-Class. I owned a December 2000 built A-Class and got rid of it within 3 years of ownership (in 2004). Loved the design and quirkiness of the vehicle but the reliability was appalling.

    The problems:

    • Generally poor quality plastics and interior. Bits of trim loose and/or falling off. Rattled and squeaked.
    • Driver's seat height adjustment handles were all plastic and turned a metal spigot, therefore they would snap off after a few uses. How this passed Mercedes quality control is beyond me
    • Indicator stalk broke internally, therefore every time I used the indicator the high beams would come on

    • Alternator became intermittent. At inconvenient moments the car's battery would be dead flat. No battery warnings on the dashboard.

    • At 66,000km the car started to idle slightly roughly. Diagnosis was a kink in the engine's timing chain. This is a part with an estimated 250,000km lifespan. A few hundred kilometres later (while waiting for the new part to come in) the chain snapped. Damage to pistons, exhaust valves, engine head. Car was in workshop for a month while parts were sourced and replaced. Whole engine compartment was stripped to repair it. This was outside of warranty and would have easily cost $5k+. Fortunately Mercedes extended the warranty and covered all costs.

    A friend owned an automatic A-Class of the same vintage. The magnetic part that collects metal filings in the gearbox became clogged and an entire new controller circuit board was required. $2250, just for the part. Plus fitting.

    After my Mercedes experience I bought a Mitsubishi Lancer and so far have done 168,000km without the car failing once.

    Just out of interest, was the $3k part the OP managed to source for $250 from a wrecker the oxygen sensor? Although I never experienced a failure, there were many stories of these going bad. The whole ECU circuit board needed to be replaced.

    • Hoju on 14/08/2014 - 14:31
      +1

      Appreciate your sympathy @Cluster!
      Sounds like the debacle we've had. Actually two of our neighbours in the apartment block have A classes and both have had major issues.

      The part I sources from a wrecker was the power steering pump. Honestly $3k to fix power steering was just obscene. But a few months after we bought it something went on the ECU and that was $2500. Total joke.

      Out of interest what was the timing chain symptom you had like? In terms of idling roughly was it losing revs or making a noise or something? Not sure what rough idling is but I'm praying our timing chain isn't the next thing to go!

      • Cluster on 14/08/2014 - 14:52
        +1

        $3k to fix the power steering. Daylight robbery on a vehicle that's probably worth barely more than that today. Your ECU failing could have been the oxygen sensor. Common fault. It was so common that back in 2004 when I researched the problem there were already businesses popping up in England that would take your ECU, recondition/repair it for about $600.

        The slightly rough idling symptom was something like the engine skipping a beat once every 15 or 20 seconds. The revs would drop slightly for a fraction of a second and everything would be okay again. I noticed it but other people didn't. In gear there were no problems. Admitedly, I did drive the vehicle for a few weeks like this before finally taking it into the Mercedes dealership. They opened the rocker cover and saw the slight kink in the chain. Think of a bicycle chain with one link seized. They let me have the vehicle back and I was so fed up with the car I almost immediately went out and bought a new Lancer. While waiting a week for the car to arrive I continued to drive the A-Class (Merc dealership was okay with this). Two days out before getting my new car the A-Class's chain snapped. Dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree and the engine was lunched.

        After that experience I read up about interfering and non interfering engine designs. The A-Class, with its very compact design has the former. Basically if the timing of pistons and valves fails the pistons crash into the valves and you get a huge amount of internal engine damage. Lancer has a non interfering design so a snapped belt just means no drive, without the complete engine rebuild.

        The Merc dealership said this was the first snapped timing chain they had seen so I trust it's not a common problem. I was just unlucky.

        • Hoju on 14/08/2014 - 14:57

          Wow. I guess every car model can have it's stories but that's a pretty good one.
          Thankfully we don't have any symptoms like that so fingers crossed nothing else goes wrong. Thanks for the info

        • Cluster on 14/08/2014 - 15:09

          @Greenspoon:

          Just out of interest, did you ever take out the rear seats? I got the internal bike rack as part of the car deal. Used it twice and never again. The smaller rear seat was okay to remove, the the other double seat was so damn heavy I only removed it once.

        • Hoju on 14/08/2014 - 18:11

          @Cluster:
          Hehe nah when we bought it we thought wow what a cool feature. And then we never used it!
          Pretty cool design thing but for people with kid seats strapped in it quickly became redundant.

  • zs8574832 on 14/08/2014 - 13:22
    +4

    buy a 2nd hand collora

  • KSyd on 14/08/2014 - 14:04

    I bought a Swift a year ago and am very happy with it. I was looking for something that would be relatively inexpensive, reliable, and safe. It gets great mileage as well. When I bought it they had just changed the warranty to cover 5 years rather than 3.

    Yes, the boot is fairly small, but large enough to fit a week's groceries easily. If you want to carry something large it's easy to fold down the back seat(s) and fit in heaps of stuff.

    The backseat is a good size, so it's comfortable to drive around with four people (max 5) - you can either fit more people or more stuff, just not both!

    • Hoju on 14/08/2014 - 14:39

      Hmm kids seats steal the entire back seat area and are a pain to remove so flipping seats would be rarely done!
      Having said that 5 year warranty is appealing!

      • KSyd on 14/08/2014 - 15:03
        +1

        Fair enough, I don't have any of those to cart around!

        That said I rarely have to fold down the back seat if I'm doing everyday errands… have only done so to transport folding chairs/etc….

        I guess the biggest pro is that the backseat is actually quite comfy for a small car(I've driven around with 4 adults, and those in the back seat were pleasantly surprised).

  • Cluster on 14/08/2014 - 14:25
    +1

    Honda Jazz is keenly priced and a very clever vehicle with generally positive reviews. Perhaps stretch your budget a little and consider it?

  • MegaSuperUltraTight on 14/08/2014 - 14:45
    -2

    Get a Kia Rio, just test drive one, fantastic handling and my mate works for Kia so he can hook you up on a great deal. 3 years free servicing and extras.

    • Hoju on 14/08/2014 - 14:48

      Hmm but 5 door at $15,500 isn't that competitive is it? Just comparing the reputation of Kia vs a longer standing brand such as Toyota or Mitsubishi?

    • AMLagonda on 14/08/2014 - 23:21
      +1

      Is that a troll post?

  • modsec802 on 14/08/2014 - 15:04

    This review of the Mitsubishi mirage has to be one of my favorite car reviews ever:

    review

    "Low expectations don’t guarantee happiness, but at least there isn’t much disappointment. The reborn Mitsubishi Mirage lowers expectations, strangles them and buries their remains in a deep unmarked grave. If this car wasn’t disappointing, it wouldn’t be anything at all."

    And

    "At least the optional navigation system works well with a seven-inch LCD touch screen that responds quickly to inputs. The problem is, even if the Mirage knows where it’s going, it will be a brutal journey getting there."

    Classic.

    • Hoju on 14/08/2014 - 15:10

      Hehe yeh I've seen someone link to that either on whirlpool or ozb. Generally American driving conditions are different though. With their larger roads just about everywhere, the benefits of sub compact cars are much less than they are here in suburbia where roads are so narrow and cars parked on both sides consistently have wing mirrors clipped off…

  • renster72 on 14/08/2014 - 16:50

    I Have a BMW 320d 2008 and it is great , my wife had a Hyundai Getz 2005 and just got a Mirage last year I think about $12k on road, had the $1k westfield voucher but took as discount.

    It has been recalled twice for minor things , has capped price service and is ok on fuel. She gets 7ltr per 100k driving just in Metro. (note my 320d gets 6.5) :-)

    Is the manual , has little power and the steering is light, it is noisy inside has weird voice control for everything , but has Bluetooth and some buttons on steering wheel..

    has electric windows even in back (which a review I read said only in front)

    If surprisingly large inside and being a 4 door is pretty good for price

    • Hoju on 14/08/2014 - 17:21

      Thanks for the info great to know. Apparently the car is extraordinarily light in build so I imagine the doors might feel a bit tinny?
      The fuel economy interests me. Based on the Aus fuel economy ratings it gets 4.6L/100km. Not sure if that's highway or combined cycle but a few reviews agree with your higher figure.
      But, as every car goes through the same test cycle in analysis, doesn't that mean the yaris and all others are also going to experience an equivalent increase when in the hands of the everyday user on the roads? So even if the mirage is not as good as rated, it's still going to be x% better than the competition.

      • This Guy on 15/08/2014 - 02:57

        "Combined"

        They put a car on rollers, let it cruse at a few different speeds and very gently start/stop it a few times. Most manufactures game the system by using higher gears and a very light touch on the accelerator

        With my 1.2L I get 4L/100km on the freeway with my foot and 2.6L/100km with cruise control. I get 6.2L/100km in the city with a heavier foot.

        But my car uses 95, not 91.

  • Cheeper on 15/08/2014 - 01:48
    +1

    For $13k the best buy by far would be a used Corolla, it would outlast those two you mentioned even with a few years head start. Added bonus, no expensive parts costs,… if it ever needs them that is?
    Anything else in a small car around that price would be going back to where you are now.

  • branners on 15/08/2014 - 16:21
    +2

    If I was advising someone…
    If resale is a consideration, stay away from both of those cars. The amazing deals are there for a reason and you will take a hit on value as soon as you drive it off the lot. Plus, while the running costs on both are very low, there are shortcomings on both.
    Also, consider the number of dealerships around, and how many are close to you. I have a Skoda, which is a great car, but there are few dealers and dropping off and picking up for servicing is a pain.
    As already pointed out, avoid any car that demands Premium Unleaded. Road tests tend to overlook the importance of this (car journos usually don't pay for their own fuel) but it makes a difference. On the other hand, don't quibble over saving 0.5L/100km on fuel use, that translates to $2 a week on average use.
    Try to buy at the end of the month, so that the sales folk are trying to get their numbers up.
    Cars like Fiats and Renaults are fine, but they will have similar problems to your A Class if you intend to keep the car a long time, but without the Benz's quality.
    If it was me, and buying new is a priority, I would be looking towards a Kia Rio or a Toyota Yaris. Left-field choice would be a Ford Fiesta. If you can stretch your dollars, look at a Mazda 2 or a Honda Jazz; you should get your money back when you sell or trade-in.
    And be prepared to be a bastard when you buy. The salesman is…

    • Cluster on 16/08/2014 - 03:24

      +1 on avoiding any small car that requires premium unleaded fuel. Driving past the petrol station today, the price was $1.35 for 91 octane and $1.53 for 95. Quite why someone would buy a European small car that requires 95 is beyond me, seeing as there is a huge range of small cars that are happy on 91.

  • Hoju on 15/08/2014 - 17:00
    +1

    Ok so I went for a walk past the dealers and checked out the Jazz ($17k) and Mirage ($13k). Gee dealers are interesting. One acted totally disinterested and slovenly which was either a tactic or just laziness, another very smooth and slick and knew his vehicle and facts really well, and another nervous and kept trying to sell me a sedan instead of a hatch.

    The point of resale value is well made, because I could tell instantly that the Mirage would be worth very little in the years to come, but the Jazz is a classy, very well designed car that just hums. It actually felt quite close to our A Class in terms of interior space and drive quality.

    The Mirage actually isn't that bad a car on the road. It had ample power up hills and with the AC on, and I actually thought it felt very light and nippy with smooth steering, in spite of the reviews about handling. The doors have a much more solid feel to them and seating is pretty comfortable.

    However the engine really screams, and every bump in the road is heard and I swear you can even hear the tyres rolling over the road beneath you. It felt like a 1980s car that had been resprayed and retrimmed, even with the squeal on engine startup (almost like the sound the starter motor makes when you try to start a running car). The Mirage is basically exactly what I would expect from a bargain rental car, and reminds me of the 2007 Hyundai Getz that we rented once.

    I didn't even bother driving the Barina after reading further reviews and sitting inside one it is really way too tiny for a family.

    I'll have a go of the i20 and Yaris but to be honest, for $1-2k more the Jazz seems like a great option. I guess the issue then is you can add another $1-2k more and enter another class of car completely…

    • RockyRaccoon on 15/08/2014 - 19:48
      +2

      Greeenspoon. I couldn't see in a quick scan of all the posts, if you are buying a manual or auto? Given you were talking about the $13K price range, I am guessing it's a manual

      If its a manual I really suggest you skip the Yaris manual. I had one, and it had severe throttle flare.

      This condition occurs because it uses a fly by wire throttle, changing gears you take your foot off the accelerator, then change the gear. In the Yaris there is a delay, so the engine is still reving higher when you change the gears. Also when you take off from stop, this delay can cause the car to stall as when you press the accelerator, there is a delay and you let out the clutch at the same time and there is now no power for a second or two, so it stalls. You can hold off letting out the clutch, but then the engine starts to rev to much. Its hard sometimes to get the timing right. Embarrassment, stalling at the lights isnt as bad as the safety issue it creates.

      And after much complaining and taking it to 3 different dealers, each time it was in "spec".

      It's a manual Toyota issue.

      And I own a Corolla and Camry - both lovely cars. But both Auto, so I like Toyota's but not a manual Yaris

      BTW with all small cars, remember you have a TURBO button to help you get up the hills. Its the aircon button, turn it off and get a surge of power

      • Hoju on 16/08/2014 - 07:31

        Thanks for the tips on the yaris. My wife is just learning manual (we have the clutchless manual A Class and even that took a little getting used to) so a manual that is prone to stalls and flares is particularly unappealing
        Still worth a test drive?

        • RockyRaccoon on 16/08/2014 - 08:25

          Maybe, but give it a really good test rather than just the drive around the block. When I bought mine I never noticed it until I stalled it a few times. Initially I still thought it was me getting used to a manual again.

          BTW Just noticed in the paper there is the Kia RioS 3 door manual being advertised for $13990 Drive Away with $1000 factory bonus and $500 fuel card (which I read as extra ie making cost 12490), and the Rios is a sibling of the i20 (Daily Tele p37 cars section - Trivett Kia)

      • cannedhams on 17/08/2014 - 18:55

        You get used to it though, feathering the throttle is second nature after a while.

    • Cluster on 16/08/2014 - 03:26

      I was listening to ABC radio a few nights ago and apparently Honda car sales are plummeting in Australia. Year on year about 40%. That's not to say the cars are bad but it's just that some of the models are a little old and everyone seems to want Toyota and Hyundai these days. It may give you a great opportunity to squeeze a better price out of Honda as the dealerships are screaming for customers.

      • Hoju on 16/08/2014 - 07:37

        That's interesting. The dealer seemed very keen on pushing theirs as a premium brand over the others in terms of resale value (but he was the smooth one of the bunch).

        I was wondering when comparing Honda with the others if they still have similarly favourable costs for parts and repairs. The new jazz was really nice. Almost makes me think it's worth driving our car to its grave for a year and picking up a used 1 yr old 2014 model still under manufacturer warranty. Hmmmmmm

      • Speckled Jim on 16/08/2014 - 21:17

        Want to know why?

        Honda have a poor reputation for reliability where automatic transmissions are concerned.
        Most Hondas are also made in Thailand now. At the prices they're asking, why even bother with one?

        This is coming from a Suzuka-made 1989 Honda owner.

        • Hoju on 16/08/2014 - 21:34

          Hmm good point. That's why when we bought the A Class, we didn't buy a Jazz then. Warnings of failing auto transmissions and then one that I test drove had all the signs of a failing transmission (juddering when changing from 1st to 2nd). But other than that???…

        • Speckled Jim on 16/08/2014 - 21:54

          @Greenspoon:

          Just the shift of manufacturing outside of Japan. Personally, if I wanted a Thai-built car, I'd get a Fiesta. But the Jazz has more room.

          If you're really set on a Jazz, I'd refer you to the Honda City. Basically the same mechanically, it's essentially a Jazz sedan. Their relative lack of popularity should equate to keen pricing, especially if you get a used 2012-ish model.
          Just not the CVD auto :D

        • schwinn on 17/08/2014 - 00:39

          @mcmonte:
          But the city does not have the flat folding back seats, which is why the jazz is magical. I've owned a jazz for 10 years, and they are still as popular now as they were back then, you'll see more on the roads.
          The jazz has been our little workhorse delivering dining sets, fridges, heaps if furniture while we were a nomad couple.

        • tonyjzx on 17/08/2014 - 13:38

          Hondas arent selling because their cars are basically quite shit for the money

          they are selling on name only

          the koreans are eating their lunch and good on them

          Honda City? yuck

  • striker5950 on 15/08/2014 - 20:18
    +1

    I would seriously consider having a look at the second hand market, you can get a fairly new decent enough car for that kind of money. if ur interested ill list some for you, like a second hand corolla, civic, etc, however between those 2 that u listed, the mirage hands down.
    just saw ur other commnets, yes the i20 is a very nice package, Hyundai has really improved over the years. the yaris is toyota so its pretty much bulletproof. i have driven both the yaris and the jazz and I can tell you I would take the jazz because of its nimbleness and handling compared to the yaris. both were 2012 models. all those cars you listed are good cars, what is the highest your willing to pay though? you were talking about 13k range now your talking about the jazz which is around 17k

  • UncommonName on 15/08/2014 - 21:40

    I think I'd have to hand-in my OZB card if I ever buy a new car. The price depreciation is too much in 2-3 years.

    I drive a shitty Mitsubishi Magna, my first car; and I'm researching on my 2nd car since buying it. After several months of research, I'm looking at Getting a 8-10 years old Toyota Yarris or Honda Civic (definitely automatic!), when the Magna breaks down. Probable price would be around 4000-5000$ without rego cost, or so is my target. Although I think I need to keep a mental note about Suzuki Alto too. :)

    But that's just me…

    • Hoju on 16/08/2014 - 00:31
      +1

      Yeh that's been my mentality all my life. New cars are a waste of money.
      But, in the last 4 years over two used cars we have spent $13k on two 8-10 year old cars and $7k on repairs to those. If only that money had been put into a new car we would have a really nice vehicle still under warranty.
      Mistake was probably buying European but nonetheless, trying to learn from our mistakes…

      • RockyRaccoon on 16/08/2014 - 06:30
        +2

        Your summation on issues is correct.

        1. 8-10 year old cars (unless you are mechanically enabled)
        2. As above plus European (lovely to drive new, but motoring writers don't keep cars)

        Considering that the biggest drop in value in a car is the first 1-2 years. Being able to get a low mileage 1-2 year old secondhand car will gain the best savings with a balance of warranty.

        In that case the better way to buy one of these would be a private sale.

        The economics are based on this.

        The Dealer gets rebates plus direct profit on a new car. Without knowing what that true level is lets assume its a gross of $2000 - they have their overheads to pay like commission etc, so net profit maybe rather small, but as you will see thats rather irrelevant to this.

        So a $13K car they buy for $11K. Someone buys one and the next day changes their mind. The BEST the dealer will offer them is the $11K, otherwise they will buy one from the manufacturer.

        Now they would need to discount the used car say $1K (selling it for $12K) to make it attractive for someone else to buy. So they would at best offer $10K to the seller.

        You see the drop in value is instant when it leaves the showroom and the greatest hit to value is then.

        If you can find the private seller who is selling a near new low mileage car, you can save.

        Issue is you may have to wait a while, so theory and practice dont always meet.

        (Eg my 7 months old new Camry - which you can buy now new for $27K, is listed in car sales as worth $20K as trade in - which makes the six years older 2007 Gumtree Camry for $13K, refered to below, looking rather high priced)

        • Hoju on 16/08/2014 - 08:36

          Man interesting split of costs. Guess a 1-2 year old used is a decent option if you can find it but who gets rid of a new car after such a short time?!

        • RockyRaccoon on 16/08/2014 - 12:31

          @Greenspoon:

          as I said not many, but eg someone gets a company car, or goes overseas, loses licence, deceased estate.

        • striker5950 on 16/08/2014 - 14:36

          @Greenspoon: some people just do, dosent mean there is something wrong with the car.., start looking at a second hand corolla for mate

  • Fobsessive on 16/08/2014 - 00:27

    Gumtree up a used Toyota Camry 2007 for around $13,000?

    • pao2x on 16/08/2014 - 23:12

      That is way expensive for an 07 camry

  • swoods2 on 16/08/2014 - 22:30

    I know this is not a popular/"normal" choice but I've been looking at a Camry Hybrid (for example this one http://www.carsales.com.au/dealer/details/Toyota-Camry-2011/…)

    All the luxury feature and economical and Toyota quality. I currently own a 1997 Camry at 280k and never missed a beat!

    The example one only done 60k and around $18k, you can get private buy for cheaper!

  • BartholemewH on 17/08/2014 - 02:37

    OP, I agree with most others that the mirage and particularly the spark are crap boxes. You asked above who sells one or two year old near new cars, the answer is the government and fleet managers.

    Sign up to pickles online and install their auction software (maybe browser based by now). When the next auction comes up in your area you can watch it live from the comfort of your office. You will start to get a feel for the process and the prices. Once you've watched a few auctions you can work out what you want and how much you're willing to pay based on prior sales. Attend an auction that has a large number of the model you are after. Check the cars out thoroughly and rank them on your booklet. Start the cars and rev them, despite being told not to. Ensure you check everything including working seatbelts, spare keys, tyre changing tools and power window operation. Pay the deposit and participate in the auction. If you purchase something, pay for it and take the paperwork to RMS for rego or transfer. Job done.

    I bought my first newish car this way when i was 21. I couldn't find a similar car for less than 21k plus onroads in Sydney dealers but i paid 14,600 at auction. The car is now 14 years old and my little sister now uses as her first car. Still going strong.

    • tonyjzx on 17/08/2014 - 13:59

      if you have a family and kids and i dont know why youd bother with these sub compact cars

      get a Corolla sized thing at least

      a while back they were selling the Ford Focus 1.6 for $16,990 out the door

      if you're driving mainly by yourself you may be ok with i20 or Kia Rio sized car

      but going one step SMALLER than this makes no sense to me

      I'm not hung up on Ncap but you really cant be safe in a car that weighs 900kg but hey, its your kids

      the Rio at 1,1-1.2 ton is ok, 1.3 ton for a Focus Cruze i30 is better

      theres no upside to getting a tiny city car, they arent that appreciably more fuel efficient, nor is the saving on rego worth it (you get stung on green slips anyway)

  • branners on 17/08/2014 - 15:36
    +2

    On the Thai-built cars thing…
    A few years back I had the opportunity to have dinner with a bunch of Honda engineers. While it might sound like no fun, it was a cracker of a night. They were due to fly out to Japan the next day and be back at work the day after that, so they made a big night of it…
    Around that time, Honda Oz was just about to start selling 'Thai' Jazzes, rather than 'Japanese' built ones. Mid-sake, I asked the most senior engineer, 'If you were buying a new car for one of your kids, what would you want — one built in Japan or one from Thailand?' Everyone at the table went silent, and without blinking, he said, 'Thailand'. I said, 'I expected you to say that, but why Thailand?' He said, 'Thailand, new factory, new robots; steel — SAME!' He then raised his glass, yelled 'Kampai!" and we toasted something (it may have been the King of Thailand's health).
    A while later, I had a Honda PR explain to me that because Thailand's Jazz production was fairly new, there were fewer flaws in their cars. And because labour was so relatively cheap there, there were MORE people working in quality control there than there might be in a Honda facility in another country. So, Thailand quality is, generally speaking, very good.
    Quite recently, the Australian-designed, Thai-built Ford Ranger was named the best car of its type in the world — by the boss of Nissan. I would not have any concerns about the quality of Thai-built Hondas, or most other Thai cars.

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