Is it unethical for me to charge fees?

juventino on 10/08/2014 - 08:10
Last edited 10/08/2014 - 08:11

In the other thread about making extra money, I provide a service to some friends and mostly strangers in university and online marketplace to find cheapest price as my side project.

I've been negged left and right and called unethical as I stand to make profit from people ( majority are strangers and a few will be friends.

First taste of OzBargain collective awesomeness :)

People help friends and others without return. I GET THAT. I do it most of the time too.

If friends come to ask for the cheapest Ipad, I'll just ask them to come to BigW for my staff discount. It is straight forward,takes 5 mins so I don't charge.

In the event of me charging some fee to people ( mostly strangers from various online marketplace and some will be friends or colleagues). Here are some things I have to do :

  1. Search for the items, both local and overseas for the cheapest price or value. Most of the time it will be items sourced from overseas.

  2. Read reviews to make sure items are decent.Recommend alternative when appropriate.

  3. Liaise with forwarding services such as Shipito and MyUS coz most of the stuff will be delivered from US. Some US stores won't ship internationally. If you have used them before, you'll know these services cost a lot of money.

  4. Use my own debit card to do the purchasing. If I get scammed, I am taking the hit all by myself

  5. Accept the delivery. Most of the time I have to rearrange it with the courier or I have to pick it up from post office.

  6. Check if everything is okay or complete. Then repack and post to the recipient including all the invoices and other fees from post office and forwarding services. I am sure you know all about the postage fee.

  7. Help with dispute and warranty purposes. For friends only, I don't do it for strangers from marketplaces.

I'm sure there is nothing wrong with charging strangers, but what about friends or colleagues?

Please note, there is no hidden fee, I list it out including all the invoices.

Is it wrong or unethical for me to charge colleagues and friends when they come to me and ask me to do all those steps for them? What if I actively offer my services to them?

Another scenario
What if say, you offer a forwarding service, would you charge your friends?

What if your friends come to your restaurant, how would you charge them ? Free ? half price ? cost price or fixed discount ?

Please discuss ( or critisize me all you want ) , so I can adjust my perspective and perhaps have another thought regarding my stances.

A bit of context: I come from an Asian country where commission (service fee) is widely accepted and not frowned upon. You'll most likely get commission if you help people (including your friends) to find buyers for the house or motorcycle, computers et, importing stuff from overseas and deal with customs.

General Discussion

Comments

  • [Deactivated] on 10/08/2014 - 08:14
    +17

    Please note, there is no hidden fee, I list it out including all the invoices.

    No, it's not unethical if you tell them upfront you charge a fee and they agree. You're acting as a buying agent.

    • juventino on 10/08/2014 - 08:33
      +1

      Cheers, duly noted. I do charge fixed fee if it is under certain amount and percentage fee above that.

      • keyboarddancer on 11/08/2014 - 16:05

        That depends on your purpose and on the free time you have. I don't know why you have complicated feeling like this. If you need money, then ask for it, even if it is your friend. You should be happy that you found a business to grow! If you have a lot of free time and you have a spirit of helping others, then enjoy it without complaints!

        Life is like this, you cannot eat an egg without breaking it!

        • juventino on 11/08/2014 - 16:12

          I thought getting a commission for what I am doing is quite reasonable in that I spend quite some time to do it.

          Others on the other threads have said that it was a bit sneaky and unethical (perhaps I didn't elaborate enough there), so I just posted this to see where things stand, whether I need to change my perspective regarding this.

          Thanks for the advice

  • shkev on 10/08/2014 - 08:21
    +25

    If you are good at something, you do not do it for free - The Joker

    • juventino on 10/08/2014 - 08:33

      even for friends ?

      • wittyusername on 10/08/2014 - 09:27
        +2

        Even for family.

        • Rookie117 on 10/08/2014 - 17:11
          +11

          Especially for family.

        • juventino on 10/08/2014 - 17:32
          +4

          @Rookie117:

          You're joking right? I never thought of charging family members for anything

        • Rookie117 on 11/08/2014 - 09:28
          +3

          @juventino: Nope.

        • happysound on 13/08/2014 - 17:09

          @juventino:
          If you want to support your family without them supporting your business, that's your mighty sacrifice.

  • [Deactivated] on 10/08/2014 - 08:36
    +10

    The way you initially described what you did is quite different to how you've posted it here… which is why I think you were negged in the other thread (btw, five negs isn't so bad lol). In this thread you're putting a lot of emphasis on how you do that for strangers, yet in the previous post you only said friends - which makes it sound like you do it to close mates:

    When my friends want to purchase something, I ask them what they are willing to pay for. I'll find it somewhere cheaper. Pocket some of the difference and pass the rest to my friend. Both happy.

    I can see how the wording of your posts doesn't sit right with some people. Personally I can see why it's fair from your perspective since you are putting in some work to help your friends (or strangers :P), but I also feel that it's a bit weird to make some profit out of simply helping out your friends (or at least I'd be uncomfortable with doing it). I help mates and family all the time, giving them tips on where to find something they're looking for etc - I don't even think about it, it's instinct… so even thinking about it being 'work' (and thus feeling like I deserve cash for it) is pretty foreign to me. I dare suspect the same goes for the peeps that negged you.

    Amusingly enough, I mentioned the situation to my mother before you even posted this thread. I was just curious about her take on it lol. She thought there was nothing wrong with what you were doing, and even said she'd probably do the same. Pretty interesting, huh. She's Asian as well, which may help explain the different view (note for anyone ready to bark at me for sounding racist - that's not a racist comment, it's a mere acknowledgment of different cultures shaping different 'norms', I don't mean it in a derogatory way - heck, I'm half Asian and have grown up being fully exposed to different cultures first hand).

    But yeah. Don't stress. If you're open about it with the people you charge a fee to, then they obviously agree and are fine with it, so who cares what a bunch of strangers on the interwebz think? :P I might not necessarily agree with the concept of charging service fees to friends but I think as long as you're totally upfront about it with those people, then so be it - enjoy your earnings. If you were secretive about it though… I'd be a bit more critical of it lol.

    • [Deactivated] on 10/08/2014 - 08:39

      Also you didn't post all that detail in the other thread, so I didn't know (and I guess others also didn't assume) that you actually did the purchases yourself for those friends. Admittedly with friends/family, I don't take the risks of buying the items they need/want for them… I just point them in the direction and they buy it themselves. So yeah, yours is a more formal transaction with your friends, I guess.

      • juventino on 10/08/2014 - 08:51
        +1

        Too late to edit the post there. I found that once you're negged, editing the post or clarify in the same thread doesn't work :)

      • Juice08 on 11/08/2014 - 16:10

        'Pocket some of the difference' sounds dodgy. If it's agreed on by both parties then it's not unethical.

        Personally I wouldn't charge friends or family but doesn't mean you can't. You'd probably do better to buy and sell like my brother-in-law does and make profit that way but there are cons with that too. At least this way you have a buyer lined up.

        • juventino on 11/08/2014 - 16:15

          Did what you brother in law does as well back in university years. I was already sourcing products from US and UK at that time

    • dbui8743 on 11/08/2014 - 17:51
      +2

      I'm asian and grew up in Asia too, but can't really speak for how the culture would affect one's POV.

      Personally speaking, I can't bring myself to do anything for friends that involves them paying money to me even if they are still better off compared to, should they do it themselves. It just does not feel right somehow and it really does eat me up inside. lol.

      However, I am at war with myself at times. I have helped countless of my friends, and in hindsight, I have had moments I spent contemplating why I bothered. Some of them don't seem to really appreciate what I have done, which was much more than just scouring the internet for cheap stuff. Many take my deeds for granted, probably with the mentality that we are friends, more than just acquaintance which leads to moral obligation in a sense.

      In the end, really think about making a vow that I am not going to go out of my way to assist people anymore, unless they are really begging for it lol.

      • pyro love bird on 11/08/2014 - 20:08
        +1

        I don't think that's the right mentality to have. I think you should help people not to get something in return but because you care about them (if they're being total jerks and not even saying thanks then that's different). Don't let a few people make you bitter, you've got a big heart and sound like a kind person. So please don't change on account of a few people, there are people who do appreciate you and what you do, sometimes they're just don't show it :)

      • aeoz on 12/08/2014 - 07:51

        shadow54 has a rational response for this below. Quoted:

        Seems some of your friends are just using you because they're too lazy to do their own research and ordering. Differentiate as follows: for friends who do YOU favours and support you, help them for nothing - that is what friendship is all about. For "friends" who never do anything for you and do not support you in any way, make them pay - they are just looking for a free ride on your back. Good luck……..

  • airzone on 10/08/2014 - 09:35
    +3

    Ethics aside, if you are furnishing your customers with an invoice for goods and services, are you declaring this income to the ATO? Who is providing the warranty? Whose name is on the original invoice, and do you provide that to your customers?

    Cashies for friends & family are one thing, but when you are leaving a paper-trail with strangers, then you need to think of that case when a deal goes sour and the customer complains to accc / ato / or whoever. Protect yourself!

    One of my relos was running a home daycare on the side, and had run it for many years without issue. Until that one time that the kids parents got involved into a messy divorce and dragged her into it. And then the operation got out. Luckily for her, she had been declaring the income to the ATO (and the ATO did contact her about it).

    • juventino on 10/08/2014 - 09:57
      -3

      The only invoice I provide is the original invoice from the stores or forwarding companies.So warranty is provided by the stores. No name on invoices just like how you get invoice when you go buy from Jb Hifi and the like. Although there is an option to do it.

      • Rookie117 on 11/08/2014 - 17:12

        That won't help you when the ATO comes chasing you for not paying your taxes.

        • juventino on 11/08/2014 - 17:51
          -1

          you are correct. although they will probably focus on other things such as high volume ebay sellers where everything is recorded in the databases.

          Mine will be like a tradie getting paid in cash or those on Airtasker providing help to others. Plus I paid my taxes as well.

        • devilishm on 12/08/2014 - 21:13
          +1

          If you're charging fees without paying the necessary taxes then it is unethical, albeit not in the context of ethics that you are enquiring on. If you're paying the necessary taxes then good for you.

        • Rookie117 on 13/08/2014 - 14:13

          @devilishm: not just unethical but also illegal

  • spychiatrist on 10/08/2014 - 09:44

    Nothing wrong with making a few bucks off friends. Just make sure that 1. Your selling price is cheaper than anywhere else, like they missed on a good deal, and b. You put on the piss or treat them to a meal - HJ or Maccas, it doesn't matter, and lastly, You don't tell anyone!

  • aocal on 10/08/2014 - 11:07

    If the purchaser is happy with the price you are asking, I can't see any problem. I don't think you need to show how you arrived at the price.

  • RyanMK on 10/08/2014 - 11:14
    +1

    So, will you be able to get me a good deal for an Ipad Air with your staff discount? :D

    Also, I have no issues with you making money off friends as long as they are aware of it.

    • juventino on 10/08/2014 - 16:12
      -1

      yeah, come to my store if you're in melbourne and i'll lend you my staff discount card

      • [Deactivated] on 10/08/2014 - 17:48

        Hope you don't actually lend your card out. Safer to buy it for the person and they give you the cash. I used to have a Woolies staff card from working in Dan Murphy's. My mum would always borrow it on weekends to do her shopping… til staff asked for her ID and it didn't match my name on the card. Got confiscated :( No more discounts.

        • tonka on 10/08/2014 - 19:26

          Wow, someone must have been having a power rush.
          I once had something similar, some idiot was calling the store manager downstairs to verify my signature on the card for a 4 cent discount.
          Once I managed to penetrate their haze of power, I told them I wasn't waiting for 20 minutes for 4 cent discount on a candy bar and left.

          You should ask for a new card. Tell them your mum lives with you and was buying your groceries.
          I'd check the card got handed in too and the dude wasn't just nicking it for his/her mum.

        • tonka on 10/08/2014 - 19:29

          @tonka:
          Also if something like this happens , try telling them that senior executives get extra cards for their immediate family. Not sure if true for Woolies , but it is for other companies.

        • juventino on 10/08/2014 - 20:37
          -1

          sorry..using the wrong word here. I usually accompany the person, friends or strangers to the counter and 'lend' them the card for 5 seconds just enough to scan :)

        • [Deactivated] on 10/08/2014 - 20:57
          +1

          @tonka: It was several years ago though lol. To be fair, I'd already finished working at Dan's months (or longer?) earlier but they never asked for my staff discount card back and it kept working, so I kept using it lol. Not even sure if I was meant to still use it - so I kinda already knew my time was going to be up eventually and either the card would suddenly stop working, or it'd be confiscated when my mum kept borrowing it.

          …and it did :(

        • HappyFace on 10/08/2014 - 22:21

          @juventino: Which store in Melbourne you work with. I might buy an iPad soon. Hope you will help :)

          btw, how much is the discount?

        • juventino on 11/08/2014 - 00:01

          @HappyFace:

          Melb QV. Normal discount is 5% off , during staff discount day, between 10%-15% off.

          Not in Aust at the moment. You can still rock up there and find staff who are willing to be your friend for a few mins. Just strike up a convo and be friendly.

        • HappyFace on 11/08/2014 - 23:46

          @juventino: Thanks mate. I go to this BigW often, see you someday :)

      • RyanMK on 10/08/2014 - 22:23

        @juventino,

        Which store my friend? :)
        Could you PM me the details? Try PM-ing you but you've got it set to not allow new conversations.

        • juventino on 10/08/2014 - 23:58

          can't PM you since I am outside Oz at the moment. Melbourne CBD store

        • RyanMK on 11/08/2014 - 04:06

          @juventino:

          When will you be back? :)

      • Flying Ace on 11/08/2014 - 08:03

        Yikes, one of my old school friends did this for another large retail chain (gave his discount card to his cousin to use) and was promptly fired. I don't know what Big W's policy is, but I'm sure it's pretty similar! Even my company's policy is black and white. Discount card is ONLY for your use.

  • Shadow54 on 10/08/2014 - 11:54
    +6

    Seems some of your friends are just using you because they're too lazy to do their own research and ordering. Differentiate as follows: for friends who do YOU favours and support you, help them for nothing - that is what friendship is all about. For "friends" who never do anything for you and do not support you in any way, make them pay - they are just looking for a free ride on your back. Good luck……..

    • juventino on 10/08/2014 - 16:27
      +2

      I once gave a list of 'staticice' price sorted ascendingly to a colleague. He ended up buying from Harvey Norman in the same building. Baffling.

    • woz on 11/08/2014 - 13:04
      +1

      I read through his entire thread with great interest seeing how people rationalise their differing views. But this post by Shadow54 is the hands-down winner by a country mile IMHO.

  • grovesy15 on 10/08/2014 - 14:09

    I'm okay with it as well, as long as they are aware…and if you're doing a good job, probably happy to pay.

    GoPro's at BigW you can help with for staff discount? I'll happily "pay" for the relationship haha :)

    • juventino on 10/08/2014 - 16:16
      +1

      Im having holiday atm. just come to any BigW store with preferably lots of younger staff.

      just ask nicely,pretend to be their friends for a min. most of us have the card inside our wallet. we don't mind and I've done this several time for my housemates and some good natured customers

      No need to pay :)

      • grovesy15 on 10/08/2014 - 17:39

        PM mate?

        • juventino on 10/08/2014 - 20:57

          yeah fire away. I updated the setting.

  • sparkles on 10/08/2014 - 16:44

    Do your friends not have Google? The only thing I would pay money for someone else to find me a sweet deal is airline flights. Otherwise, just check prices online, it's not difficult.

    • juventino on 10/08/2014 - 17:34
      +2

      That's what I always say. "Google is your friend".

      Some just can't be bothered though

  • wonderboy on 10/08/2014 - 20:08

    I have a few questions about this.

    How many times have done this? How many times have you got paid?

    Why are you buying with your own money? Do you get paid before hand?

    Why not have the items delivered to your friend's house? That will save plenty of time and money than having it shipped to your house and then you shipping it to another.

    Why not just give your friends a link to the product? If they don't want to buy from overseas then they can buy local or live without.

    • juventino on 10/08/2014 - 20:55

      It's a side project, so not many time. Got paid most of the time, got burned twice as buyers backed down. But I managed to sell it off anyway.

      Yes with my own money. I take 20% deposit as precaution, 50% if they are strangers.

      Some companies only allow product to be sent to cardholder address so I can't send it to my friend's house. I either ship it to their home or give it to them when i have the chance to meet them

      I gave out directions on how to order sometime especially if it is straight forward. Some just choose others to do the work for them.

  • RefusdClassification on 11/08/2014 - 05:23
    +3

    Capitalism is an economic system based upon exploiting and manipulating other people, so there is nothing wrong with your behaviour in a capitalist 'Ayn Randian' dystopia such as ours. If you offer your services for free, other people won't reciprocate your philanthropy by helping you for free in return.

    Unfortunately, there are very few true Marxists out there in world, people who genuinely believe in cooperation and helping one another build a better society. All of the rich, stingy people will just take advantage of your philanthropy and give you nothing back in return. Capitalism 101.

    • [Deactivated] on 11/08/2014 - 05:52
      +6

      A number of years ago I used to live in Canberra. Was working at the hospital then had a nervous breakdown and became unemployed for several months. I was on my own, incredibly ill with an eating disorder and depression, no car, in the dead of winter and just managing to make ends meet. Somehow I managed to land a casual job at a supermarket during this time and used to pass this young homeless guy who sat outside the shopping centre most days, right near the centre entrance. He was a silent beggar.

      I took pity on him because it was so freaking cold and this guy seemingly had nowhere to stay, so I started giving him any spare cash I had - usually between $10-20 at a time. Frequently. Meanwhile I'd trek by foot back and forth from home, barely managing to keep warm myself (I had a BMI of about 12 - I nearly cried during each walk because of how painful it was) instead of wasting any extra cash I made to get a taxi home (there were no buses going my way).

      A while later a new housemate of mine and I were chatting and the homeless young guy came up in conversation. My housemate laughed when I said I used to give him stuff… turns out the "homeless" guy had a car, would park in the nearby parking lot, and earned quite a decent amount. I was pretty peeved lol I would've chewed off my right leg to have a car of my own at that time… he obviously had more cash than I did at the time lol. and there I was sharing my crappy wages with him.

      Ah, that was a joyous time. Hate to admit it but that made me rather cynical about ever wanting to act on my instincts again (ie. to help out other people that appear to be suffering, because I knew how tough it can be to get by myself).

      What has this got to do with your post and capitalism? I dunno. Not much. I can't sleep. Ramble.

      • [Deactivated] on 11/08/2014 - 08:00
        +6

        Mornin', sleep-deprived turnip.
        Yours is an unexpected comment to find, first thing, on a Monday morning, in an OzBargain live.barely feed.
        I hope by the time I finish typing this, that you're asleep - or that you are at least on the verge of sleep, as you read this.

        If it's any compensation, I lived for more years than you did, in Canberra, and very keenly recall the numb fingers and toes. I remember a few minus-fives, sixes and sevens every winter, although minus-anything always equalled a shitty plussed-bad, with extra no-snow for zero-compensation. Two or three times, in the morning, a little bit in the corners of the fence-posts. Useless.

        Still (if you had a car…) it wasn't too far to drive to Cooma, and then the real stuff.
        Sorry that your time in Canberra was so rough for you.

        That is in the past, O' Purple-Blushed Princess of the the OzBargain Forums (wearing Crocs or not).

        Don't ever succumb completely to cynicism and please don't allow an edge to creep into your voice or a harshness to sully the way that you respond to people.
        Preserve your sweetness and femininity. They be treasure.
        So many women, by way of bad experience, end up relinquishing both.

        If you ever find yourself on the way down the eating disorder path again, grasp your brain firmly by its lapels and tell it that you have better things to do with your life.

        And sleep. Perchance to dream.

        (Yes, brains have lapels. Turnip.)

        • parisienne on 11/08/2014 - 11:01
          +3

          No Tas,YOURS is an unexpected comment to find here.Usually,smart A comments abound here…but yours is true human compassion (you left me in tears actually,as i too was in waterlogged turnips shoes only a year ago.I had been out of work for almost 2 years due to mental health issues,wondering if i took enough medication would my time in that pit be over for good,yet still feeling that my need to help others,esp.children needed to continue).Yes,sweetness and femininity have been somewhat relinquished over the years (experiences do that),BUT….i will remember your comment and try to maintain what i have left.YOU SIR OR MADAME,be treasure.

        • [Deactivated] on 11/08/2014 - 16:48
          +2

          @parisienne:
          That was lovely. Thankyou.
          On OzBargain, and everywhere else, I actually have well-honed smartarse tendencies, but I do at least temper them, or otherwise try to keep them in check - at least on the rare occasions when I'm really trying to be serious.

          To answer your question at the end there, I'm sure that a username like 'Sirmartarse', would indeed be less ambiguous than mine, but 'T,as' will just have to suffice on OzBargain.

          I trust that you're in a considerably better place than you were, but should you ever find yourself - briefly - back in the depths, resolve to pull yourself out of the sadness, at least sufficient to properly look at some of the (all-around-everyone) wonders of the world.
          Much to see.

        • parisienne on 12/08/2014 - 10:02
          +1

          @Tas: Sweetheart,sometimes it is easier said and all,BUT i will remember the last line you wrote and try as hard as possible to do just that.THANK YOU DEAR TAS.XO

        • [Deactivated] on 12/08/2014 - 21:43
          +2

          I don't know what to say, Tas. That was the nicest post I've probably ever read. Thank you :)

          (I'll remember to dust off my long-forgotten brain lapels too lol)

        • parisienne on 13/08/2014 - 13:29
          +1

          @Tas: Well Tas,as i wrote that post yesterday,i was (blissfully)unaware of the events that had taken place over in California with Robin Williams.The post you made seems even more poignant and special now (as i am not so blissfully unaware today).Also to waterlogged turnip…you to stay strong and remember what was once said to me…"Death is a permanent solution to a temporary problem",and to pyro love bird…..if someone had made such an offer to Robin he may well be vacuuming to Dude looks like a lady today.THANK YOU,AND HUGS TO ALL HERE WHO MAY NEED THEM.XO

      • Dr Techno on 11/08/2014 - 10:10
        +1

        I past a begger 2 times, on the 2nd time saw him flip out his mobile phone >_<

        Hmmm another interesting story, http://www.news.com.au/national/sydney-homeless-man-makes-50…

      • parisienne on 11/08/2014 - 11:14
        +4

        You and i waterlogged turnip,are such similar stories it made me weep (almost as much as the beautiful reply Tas gave).I also lost my job in a hospital due to mental health stuff,had what money i did have dwindle to nothing real quick and yet i still felt for others with so much less than i did (i,at least,had a car,roof over my head,food and someone to come home to me,but it still felt crap when others would take me for a ride).We are a rare breed nowadays Turnip,and i will say the same to you as Tas did….do not let what you are inside be tarnished by those who do not share our ideology,as the few who see past mere finance and possessions are those who make this world worth staying in.Sweet dreams.

      • parisienne on 11/08/2014 - 11:15
        +2

        PS.Take care

        • [Deactivated] on 12/08/2014 - 21:45
          +1

          You take care too :) Stay strong.

      • pyro love bird on 11/08/2014 - 14:32
        +5

        If ANY of you need somenoe to talk to I'm willing to lend an ear okay? I don't want anyone going down that path of depression/ eating disorders and such again. It's really terrible and I can't stand to see people going through it :(

        You're all amazing in your own way so don't let anyone tell you otherwise :)

        • parisienne on 12/08/2014 - 09:55
          +1

          pyro love bird….No words but THANK YOU.I wished that all who are (or were) in the same mindset as many of us had just one person like you to say that to them in the darkest of hours.It may just have helped.xxoo

        • [Deactivated] on 12/08/2014 - 21:44
          +2

          Thank you, Pyro. You're a sweetheart :)

  • cobRAJ on 11/08/2014 - 08:25
    +2

    Just tell them straight up that it takes you approximately X hours to do everything so you can't do it for free.

    And if they don't like it, they don't value your time at all, so leave them be.

  • bluedufflecoat on 11/08/2014 - 09:36
    +1

    My 2 cents:

    If people you do the work for, are happy for you to take a commission, I say go for it. :) As long as the commission is reasonable. Most times, I help people find bargains too (OzBargain helps heaps), but usually leave it up to them to make the purchasing decision themselves.

  • Boshait on 11/08/2014 - 10:29
    -1

    Take profit whenever you can, keep your costs secret.

  • Moots on 11/08/2014 - 11:48
    -7

    Where you come from and where you are are two completely different things.

    You were in an Asian country. Your not anymore, don't you dare use that as an excuse.

    • juventino on 11/08/2014 - 16:18

      I wasn't looking for an excuse. People get commissions regardless of their countries, even in Australia. Although it will be more prevalent in Asian countries

    • aeoz on 12/08/2014 - 07:46

      Woah woah woah relax there.

  • pebee47 on 11/08/2014 - 12:43
    +1

    Good mates/Close friends: Tell them where to look for best price; otherwise you'll have to ask them for $xx to cover your time spent. = clear consience
    Other friends and aquaintances: Tell them you find stuff cheap as a side business, so if they still want you to spend your time finding stuff it'll cost $yy. If they don't pay up, don't do it for them anymore.
    Other people: Tell them your price finding fee is $zz. Upfront.
    Don't buy for anyone; you just supply the link/details

  • coolhead on 11/08/2014 - 13:06

    sounds ok to me.. totally ethical as long as you mention fees upfront.. i wud suggest leave close friends n family out as that may spoil the relation/… others shud be fine

  • aripper on 11/08/2014 - 13:49

    Oh for goodness sake…. all these comments… from support to "don't you dare"/s…. If you are happy doing it and they are happy to pay you… that's a win-win situation. None of your critics can say they don't shop from retail establishments where nothing is disclosed on costs - and profits are somewhere between 50 and 500% on cost.
    Why would you seek approval from anyone to carry on a "sub- tupperware"
    type sideline anyway?

    If you want someone to show genuine interest… try the taxation people.

  • stemcell on 11/08/2014 - 17:07
    -3

    You need to get a girlfriend and if you do have one you need to spend more time with her and less time with strangers.

    Edit: Undeclared income you deserve to be roasted as much as the young lad with too much savings who wanted to claim centerlink, you're happy to claim off the government but don't pay your taxes…total scumbag.

    Why are we soft on tax avoidance but hard on people wanting to claim benefits?

    • juventino on 11/08/2014 - 18:03

      Firstly, this has nothing to do with me having a girlfriend or not.
      Secondly, this is a side job and I did pay my taxes including measly income I earned from this and the bank's interest right down to the cent.

      and 12 years in Australia, I don't claim single cents of benefit and not planning to, unless I am in dire situations and qualify for it.

  • stemcell on 11/08/2014 - 18:52
    +2

    Quoted from brezzo:

    (The staff discount card is for personal/household purchases and not goods for resale. The card is only to be used by the person whose name and signature appears on the card. Cardholders must present identification upon request at the point of sale.

    Staff discount cards will be confiscated at the point of sale if presented by an unauthorised person. Misuse of the card is regarded as a breach of policy and may result in termination. Employees leaving the company must return their card as well as any subsidiary holder's card to the relevant Line Manager on their last day of work)

    and if your abusing that system I'm sure it won't stop there.

    • juventino on 11/08/2014 - 21:25
      -2

      Again, you're wrong. It will be correct if I give the card to someone else. But I don't, since the card is with me at all time and I initiate the transaction. Goods are not for resale either.

      I've done with for my friends in the presence of the store manager. He is okay with it since it is within the guideline.

      Come, nit pick something again mate. You're sure seem hell-bent in finding my fault. Dig deeper and you'll find it because I am not a perfect human being.

      It is amusing how you are ready to call me a 'total scumbag' and wrongly accused me of not paying my taxes only because it is a cash on hand transaction.

      Treat it as a case to case basis and stop making blanket statement.

      It is grossly premature to be so confident that a person has tons more mistakes when you haven't even or perhaps proved one mistake he/she made.

      By your logic dear Stemcell, Waterlogged Turnip must have tons of other skeletons in her closet. She got her card confiscated as told above. Can you please tell me what else she have ? Maybe she didn't pay taxes as well, Maybe she 'games' the system to claim the benefits she's supposed to. Maybe she abuses the 5% ING cashback too.

      Because I don't know what she does, and I surely wouldn't be so quick to accuse her of anything else based on that 'confiscated card' only.

  • stemcell on 11/08/2014 - 22:06
    +1

    Your words are below, backtrack out of them if you can
    "yeah, come to my store if you're in melbourne and i'll lend you my staff discount card"

    You then say
    " I usually accompany the person, friends or strangers to the counter and 'lend' them the card for 5 seconds just enough to scan :)"

    ~So you admit to lending your card and you usually go with them but not always.

    Because your boss says its ok does not mean its legit, I'm sure if BigW called you in after reading this thread you'd be out.

    Edit: seems like your touting for business on here regarding pm's and mentioning the store you work at.

    • juventino on 11/08/2014 - 22:18
      -1

      Lend is probably the wrong word that I used. I edited long ago even before you accused me of doing this .

      I'm not touting any business here, don't receive any reimbursement. Don't believe me ? Ask whoever has PM'ed me if I asked for any payment. Again, you're just keep on making false assumption.

  • Randxyz123 on 12/08/2014 - 11:44
    -1

    Yes it is completely ethical. As long as you tell your customers they are being charged like a $5 processing fee, if they are saving like $150 on a iPad for example then they probably won't mind. Especially when you are buying online and have to repack the item and go to the post office I think it is perfectly reasonable to charge a fee.

    As for your question about charging your friends a different price, yes I would have a "mates rates" price for close friends and perhaps a frequent customer(s) who buys the new iPad or iPhone from my business each year.

  • sandsay on 12/08/2014 - 18:01

    I wouldn't charge my mum, or my best friend. Everyone else, yes. Not everyone has the time, money or brains for finding things they need.

  • [Deactivated] on 12/08/2014 - 20:35

    So you're a professional oz bargainer? If you do it often enough to contemplating charging money then yes.

    • juventino on 12/08/2014 - 22:36
      -1

      in certain areas yes, but there are more people here who are better at finding deals and bargains than me such as TightArse, guy is a bloody legend.

      • aripper on 13/08/2014 - 16:51
        -1

        Well Juventino…. hope you've learned a lesson here.
        You ask a question like this on any public forum and you expose yourself to criticism from those who have an abundance of it with little encouragement. Why you asked in the first place is puzzling, it's your private business!

        You'll notice "tightarse" was upfront here in wanting to provide a structured service recently - and was crucified relentlessly by the same sort of people. The same people you can bet that prospered from his many great posts in the past. He lowered himself to their level and engaged them, but I bet he wont do that again. I'm just pleased he still supports this forum

        We should encourage those who willingly share and anyone who is commercially minded and fair by dispense… we need more of them.

        • juventino on 13/08/2014 - 18:29
          -1

          I might get negged for this, afterall we're ozbargain. But if Tightarse decides to provide structured service, I'll be more than happy to pay for it,when I need to find something.

          I once remembered him spending a good few hours compiling all fast food deals during the weekend.

  • happysound on 13/08/2014 - 17:31

    Hypothetically, lets just assume this was a legitimate and accepted business, whether just starting out or in the future. Starting a business is not easy, and those who are first aware of your skills and services will probably be your friends and family. Without having built up goodwill and a customer base, it is almost impossible to know how much this service is worth individually or overall and I imagine setting a price has balance of covering your own time and energy and an evaluation of the current relationship and attitudes to specific people to determine a fair amount. Now, if you're doing a lot of this for friends and family for nothing or just covering your time at $10hr, you wont be leaving yourself any room for the business to grow, for any shortfalls or problems with items/shipping. If you're only covering your own time, its almost like running a private taxi business and just charging for fuel - while your car needs rego paid (computer/internet connect), servicing, insurance in case of accidents as it will have a higher probability of accidents being on the road more etc etc etc…

    If your friends/family are the major users of this service, and they only want to use it without supporting it or helping it grow, well I would think more carefully about how you define friends and more careful with what family thinks they're entitled to claim for free.

    • [Deactivated] on 24/08/2014 - 12:33

      @aripper @waterlogged turnip:

      Apologies @happysound for butting-in. I am not replying to you, but I also ain't silly. I am just not prepared to comment below the below, where the other two, above, have…

      Every year, a handful of OzBargainers are foolhardy enough to place comments below giant ones. By way of a glacier-like slip, those huge comments will sometimes then slide down the page and crush to death those unwary OzBargainers.
      We've all lost someone close.

      If you're still alive to read this, the two currently in-peril may care to get their wills in order, so that intended loved ones can receive any bequeathed Eneloops in a timely fashion. Fights in families over valuable property, can, after all, be gruesome.

      On the brighter side, I am predicting aripper of a flattened-turnip hashbrown.

      Cooked properly, I suppose that it could be tasty, but - of course - still likely tears from the bereaved.

  • scynaz on 23/08/2014 - 04:25

    It's not unethical unless you are being dishonest to your customers. It is however a terrible idea, unless you are making significant amounts of money. Either way, you risk losing friends. Never mix friends and family and business, friends and work etc.

    Found this out the hard way helping repair computers for family in the days when most people had desktops and computers were expensive. Alsp a friend who went out of his way to help his uncle/aunt get the best deal on a macbook for his younger school going cousins. It died after the warranty expired, possibly because the charger was messed up and a local untrained sparky tried repairing the charger which they then plugged in.

    He didn't make any money off it of course, but he got blamed by for it dying outside warranty. They claimed he had convinced them to buy Apple computers because they are reliable and last a long time, and because they are hard to repair and the repair quote was two-thirds the price of a new one.

    People will blame the person who sold them the goods and took their money. You become unpaid tech support. Legal issues aside which I have no idea about, they will blame you when their warrantyless American import dies. Keep on doing this and it is bound to happen at least once. And you can lose more than one friend once the story gets around.

    Not worth it - only do business with friends family when there's a significant amount involved - partnerships, investing in your business etc. Not for a few dollars.

    I resold used camera gear as a side business a few years ago when I needed some cash, back when you could avoid paypal by insisting on pick up or bank deposit and ebay fees weren't nuts. Perfectly legitimate, I never lied or misrepresented anything, but obviously maximizing my margin sometimes involved hard negotiations with the the people I bought from and the ones I sold to. Found people with unwanted gear who didn't know how to sell properly, got them to dig out invoices which they had forgotten they had, did some well presented advertising. Bought lots of cheap accessories separately, some quality unneeded gear, some cheap but usable ebay copies like hoods grips etc, bundled it with cameras etc as free accessories. Find someone selling a body, find another person with a brand new kit lens they don't use and are willing to sell at a throwaway price, sell it as a kit to people who will compare the price to that of the same kit at Paxtons etc. Also back when Australian retailer prices were a lot more ridiculous than they are now, and when big retailers didn't do grey imports, a lot has changed.

    Sometimes people paid more for used gear than they would for brand new grey imports, and I obviously wasn't going to point that out. On the other hand, I would of course point out grey pricing to people I bought from.

    The only time I had a glitch was when I sold an old lens in person, the buyer tested it, but the motor died a few days later. Was out of warranty and was clearly sold as used and out of warranty, but the buyer insisted I had to refund and I had knowingly sold it as defective. I eventually gave a small refund to close the issue, although I was under no obligation to of course, but that and me explaining clearly and repeatedly how I wasn't in the wrong mollified him.Or the lens started workign again because h suddenly went quiet. The other (not really relevant but interesting) incident was when I bought from a teenager on ebay and stupidly paid by bank deposit. Nothing happened for two weeks, messages and emails were ignored and I got worried. Dug around a bit and found his personal email and a landline listed on ebay. Emails to that and a call on the landline which was answered by his father, and I had the lens in two days :-)

    Anyway, I digress. The point behind this is I never sold to or bought from a friend or even a friend of a friend. The ones who came and asked me I pointed to grey imports etc and gave them honest advice on how brand new grey imports were better than out of warranty used stuff. I even had buyers who wanted to be 'regulars' and wanted me to call if I had other things to sell that they wanted - they were actually really happy to be dealing with someone who knew what they are talking about unlike the sales drones in camera shops. I was honest with advice and facts although I would obviously leave out things like "you don't seem like you want to carry this heavy SLR around, why don't you get a mirrorless instead", or "You want are buying a 18-55mm kit lens with a 7D? Are you nuts?". Usually involved answering questions unrelated to the the sale anyway - lenses they want to buy in the future, which lens to use etc.

    I never did call them back though because I didn't want any regular customer relationship where they could complain if anything went wrong with stuff they bought before. You can't avoid this if it's someone you know. The fact that the sale was clearly made 'as is' with no warranty of any kind implied, that you were honest about the age of the item will not matter. Someone who finds themselves hundreds of dollars out of pocket because they tried to save money by buying second hand will tend to impute dishonesty on the part of the seller. These are grey areas you will have to deal with sooner or later if you're dealing with friends, especially if you want to make a useful amount of money. In fact, I am quite sure you have run into them already in some way.

    This is also why when I have things of my own to sell off I prefer selling via gumtree etc. rather than selling to friends. Nothing to gain and too much to potentially lose. If it's a good trusted friend, I usually just give things away, or let them have a free trial and then pay me when they are sure they want to keep it, and I tell them how much I paid for it originally.

    By the way I come from an Asian country too (a different one I am guessing) and the idea of charging friends and family a commission sounds even more outlandish than it does in Australia. In places where you can't rely on getting a 'fair go' and cannot trust state institutions like the police or courts or hospitals or centrelink, friendships tend to run deeper. You would have a bunch of close friends who are like family (fewer barriers than you generally have with friends in more individualistic societies like Australia). The friend who saved you from getting thrashed by the police and spending a night locked up, or the friend who drove your mother to hospital when you were away and stayed there to watch over dodgy doctors trying to force expensive treatment(no such thing a consent there), the idea of charging them a few dollars in commission for a favour helping them is quite unimaginable. You exchange favours for favours or gifts, keeps things friendly and unbusinessy. In fact even even offering or asking to share the cost of a meal can involve awkwardness. It was a novel experience when I first came here to eat out with friends and then have them split the bill evenly counting down to the last cent, or put down the exact amount to cover what they ordered for themselves.

    Friends who come to my restaurant for the first time or like once a year eat free unless the restaurant is really struggling financially. Friends who come often pay, but get special treatment similar to what your best politest regular customers would get. It's not that hard :-)

    The best advice I can give is don't invent excuses to delude yourself about what you are doing. There's no risk, as a seasoned ozbargainer you know that you can make claims with credit card companies and paypal if someone scams you. I was initially unsure about shipping forwarders but have found them to be utterly reliable, and they always use FeDex, DHL, who sort out customs and can be tracked door to door. You're running a business. It's not a hobby. Just follow these general principles - don't be dishonest, don't misrepresent (small lies like 'Oh it's not a quiet evening, we had ten delivery orders in the last hour' are almost unavoidable, calling Coles cage eggs Free Range organic is clearly dishonest), don't evade taxes, don't break laws, but accept you will have to be ruthless and unsentimental to some extent to be successfull. Don't underpay employees although this is debatable, in some places it is considered impossible to run a business if you pay all your employees minimum wage, especially when penalty rates apply (but $5/hour is never ok). Do NOT take advantage of international students by misleading them or taking advantage of their ignorance of laws - that makes you a special despicable kind of scumbag (two weeks notice if we need you to move out and you don't need receipts for the rent and the bond that you have to pay in cash, and that oven can't be fixed, and we checked your room when you were out and found a scratch on the table, you will have to pay for that from your bond).

    There's some don't be evil advice to get you started :)

    As for earning a few dollars from doing business with friends/family, just make sure you ask yourself these questions first: do you really, desperately need that money? Do you have no other options for earning a similar amount and spending a similar amount of time? Will your business be hurt badly if you stick to strangers?

    • aripper on 23/08/2014 - 12:43

      Wow scynaz…
      you sure "gave" big with your comments… and they hit
      the right nerve. I agree 200% with your appraisal of
      how we should respect our friends and appreciate them.
      I think "respect" is the rarest commodity we have
      because so few people display it. The world would be a
      much better place if there was plenty for everyone.

    • [Deactivated] on 23/08/2014 - 18:13

      Holy moly. Surely this has to be the longest comment ever posted in OzB history?

      lol. For once I have to say TL;DR… and mean it.

      • aripper on 24/08/2014 - 00:29

        I don't want to "badger" anyone "WT"- but how can a long running page bore someone who has a choice to read or avoid it.

        Come on… by the 30 odd comments you've made on Ozbargain pages in the last 3 days (1337 in less than 8mths!) surely your comment can't be taken seriously.

        And how can you give an lol. >>> then say you mean it (?)… or claim you are contributing constructive or helpful comment by that?

        Can I say IHU TAB FAW (Don't ask… I just made it up!)

        • [Deactivated] on 24/08/2014 - 09:30

          Tongue in cheek.

          Way over your head. The 'lol' is usually a safe indication.

      • pyro love bird on 25/08/2014 - 01:05

        got most of the way, gave up. Will continue later :P

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