Misuse of number plates - liability

Cave Fire on 31/07/2014 - 07:50
Last edited 31/07/2014 - 07:54

Hi all,

Sold a red 1995 Honda Civic back in November 2012 and had neglected to remove plates. They were Victorian plates and I was in Queensland. The sale was without rego, and plates were set to expire in a weeks time. Began receiving infringment notices for this vehicle around March 2013. Then began receiving notices for another vehicle, a blue Civic that seems to be a later make, with my old plates attached. The police staff that I spoke to said that I am liable for the new infringments. Can someone confirm this?

I have close to twenty infringements and have gotten most overturned, but have some with the Brisbane City Council that are proving difficult.

Automotive

Comments

    • timmypete on 01/08/2014 - 12:49

      Vicroads website states this is the case, but in a few dealings with their call centre they have consistently said I didn't need to return them.

      On this note I'm reconsidering throwing my old plates in a rubbish bin, and I'm glad I removed a different set from a vehicle I just sold unregistered!

  • snappy1234 on 31/07/2014 - 09:55

    Maybe the Police would be kind enough to put them in the System as stolen :)

  • Cave Fire on 31/07/2014 - 11:05

    Hmm tried that, but no go.

  • AMLagonda on 31/07/2014 - 11:47
    +1

    Isnt there a form stating you are no longer in possession of the plates?
    You sold the car and the plates, you cannot be liable for any new infringements when you dont own them.

    • FutureTech on 01/08/2014 - 07:51
      +3

      Yes and it's called notice of disposal in NSW

  • mikeymike on 31/07/2014 - 12:20
    +2

    I had the same thing happen to a car years ago when i first bought it, but I went from normal to custom plates and handed the old ones in - unsure how but it was used in a couple of free petrol dashes…

    Police called and i advised that it was sold and the date, sent them all the sales/transfer paperwork which was date stamped and it was all sorted - i cannot be liable for something i didn't do..

  • pao2x on 31/07/2014 - 12:33

    did you complete the sale form and notified the motor registry agency of the state/s?

  • YTW on 31/07/2014 - 13:08

    You should have kept them and handed them in.

    I would go into the RTA in person, with all of the evidence you have of the sale, and ask what I could do to get my name disassociated from the plates. There may be a form you can make a stat dec on, or you may have to file a police report. They should be able to tell you the process, you can't be the first person this has happened to.

    I would deal with this ASAP. Infringements are one thing, but if these plates are implicated in a crime (hit and run etc) then you could suddenly be in serious trouble. It would work in your favour to have already taken steps to declare you no longer have control of the plates.

    • Cave Fire on 31/07/2014 - 13:43

      They are vic plates, vicroads rep I have spoke to said there's no way I could get them anymore disassociated from myself. The last lot of infringements I have got are because I am the last registered owner of the vehicle. What I don't get is my old plates -> attached to different vehicle -> now I am liable for everything this new vehicle does? Doesn't seem right, shouldn't the registration be attached to the vehicle and not the plate?

      • hothed on 31/07/2014 - 14:58
        +1

        If they wont retract the fines, take it to court.

        Ninja edit: If you have buyers details still, fill them in on the back of the fine.

        • Cave Fire on 31/07/2014 - 15:27

          About that.. Receipt has gone missing, but thanks to another fine he incurred, I have his address circa 2013 and his first name.

  • windale on 01/08/2014 - 08:36
    +2

    I would fill out a statutory declaration copy it and then send the original to Vic roads along with the transfer of rights form dated when the sale took place.

    http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/Registration/NumberPlate…

    If you don't have the other parties details or signature, thats where the stat dec comes in, just explain you sold it but didn't get all the info etc.

    keep a copy of the form as well.

    once you get a reply take that to the coppers or whoever is sending you the notices.

    You need to put it in writing that you no longer have the plates.

  • whitty on 01/08/2014 - 10:51

    Ask for evidence that it was you. Once you sign a stat dec saying you left the plates on the car and disposed of it they either find new evidence apart from the plates, and then you get charged with perjury as well, or they have nothing.

    It's probably easier for them to tell you too bad and hope you just cop the fines than it is to sort it out properly.

    • diddy50 on 02/08/2014 - 10:21
      +1

      It's a strict liability offence, you have to prove it wasn't you. Not the other way around.

  • [Deactivated] on 01/08/2014 - 18:41
    +8

    OP - please keep us posted on how things pan out. Very interested to hear what happens. Wish you the best. Shitty situation to be stuck in, indeed.

  • kwaker on 01/08/2014 - 19:34
    +2

    you would think that because you have not paid your registration therefore its not registered you wouldn't be responsible. how can they accuse you of registration offences for an unregistered vehicle? isn't the whole point of paying rego each year to have the car officially belong to you?

    anyway best thing to do would be contact a solicitor if you can (even law access), you probably need to take some sort of official action and don't ignore it. not that you should be responsible for a car that is not registered but I don't know the laws and responsibilities.

    its absolutely ridiculous.

    • Geewhizz on 03/08/2014 - 07:23

      Technically, the plates do not belong to you, and it is the plates in question here, not the car.

  • sparkles on 02/08/2014 - 01:53

    A lesson for us all. If you sell an unregistered or unroadworthy car, remove the plates. You can cash what's remaining of your rego too.

  • snappy1234 on 02/08/2014 - 10:08

    Yep they can get a permit to move an unregistered car (in Qld) and assume most states.

  • [Deactivated] on 02/08/2014 - 12:40

    Interested in finding out what happens with the BCC infringements. Could you report your vehicle stolen? Isn't this some form of identity theft? What if the other person was involved in a hit and run?

    Heard about a guy who sold a lemon before he left for his home country (literally the last day), buyer did not apply to switch the registration/ownership of the car. Racked up crazy number of infringements (basically it was a no-responsibility car).

    The guy lost the sellers copy of the vehicle transfer form (Big mistake I reckon) and could not remember who he sold it to either. Said guy tried various approaches through the police,reporting it stolen, embassy or city council but the couldn't do anything about it (or did not want to). I think eventually the rego ran out and he was also summoned to court when they realized he was not in the country (I have no idea).
    Probably very dangerous/risky to be driving a car not registered to you + having a large tome of fines to boot.

    Made me super paranoid about checking the Identity cards when I sold my car. Had to triple check what was on the form corresponded to sellers identity documents.

    • [Deactivated] on 02/08/2014 - 17:36

      Flippin' lucky he was out of the country, otherwise I'd hate to think what the outcome would've been for him.

  • tonyjzx on 02/08/2014 - 15:14
    +1

    'The police staff that I spoke to said that I am liable for the new infringments. Can someone confirm this?'

    this is the funniest thing i heard of in a long time

    • kwaker on 02/08/2014 - 15:36

      the police don't know anything, talk to a solicitor

      normally your not liable for driving infringements if weren't driving but if its your car it is up to your to prove you weren't driving it which means showing proof you transferred ownership or proof of the person who borrowed you car, they have forms for that reason. I used to get them for company registered cars, have to find who drove it and have the driver sign to admit it was them and sign - maybe stat dec?

  • Cave Fire on 03/08/2014 - 08:37

    Hi thanks for the responses. While this was going on, I was waiting for a response from Mains Roads for another infringement. They have taken a different approach by charging me with driving an unregistered vehicle (the blue vehicle that I've never seen before). I am actually on a licence suspension, so have not driven since January 2013.

    They are also refusing to withdraw the fines. I think I'm going to try to get the police to take a report, then get Stat Decs saying I disposed of the vehicle and left the plates on.

    • kwaker on 03/08/2014 - 08:57
      +4

      I honestly think you need proper legal advice and consider taking it to court, this is more than a little fine you can just let go, its continually causing you detriment. I think it might be the typical public servants stupidity that they are not comprehending what you are saying and they might be in the wrong. I remember cases that won because the parking inspector wrote the wrong colour on the infringements so see if you can get a copy of some precedents and save your solicitor a bit of admin.

      I feel for you because this is awfull to happen and you must be pretty stressed. If you cant handle it, write to your local member for parliament and see what they can do.

      I would like to know how you go with this so please keep us updated.

      • Randxyz123 on 03/08/2014 - 09:46

        I agree with this. If you have EVIDENCE of the sale of your car just do a stat dec and hand it to the police or mark on the fine as I was NOT driving the car. If they have re-registered the plates with a different car you can show evidence that you never owned that car.

        Have you been suspended because of the fines/unregistered vehicle? If so I would definitely be talking to a lawyer…

        • Cave Fire on 03/08/2014 - 10:57

          I don't have any evidence of the sale. I was involved in car crash in December 2012 and think I may have even thrown out most documents related to cars. The infringements are all for an unknown unregistered vehicle using my old plates. I'm on a provisional licence due to other offences. Did mark not driving and unable to find the new driver on the stat dec that mains road sent me, but this was not good enough apparently.

    • bargainbunny on 04/08/2014 - 00:28

      Sorry to hear about your situation, terrible indeed. A few suggestions - if you are not getting support from police you can make a complaint against them. www.police.qld.gov.au has a complaints section or try www.complaints.qld.gov.au . Legal aid will also be able to advise you on making a complaint if you need assistance. When things are escalated you generally get results.

      If that fails i highly recommend you seek some legal advice, police only enforce they do not know the extent of the law. Most lawyers will offer a free initial consultation or again, try legal aid. If you make a complaint make sure they know this has caused you a great deal of stress and cost you lots of time.

      Its not a fair situation. I agree with one of the other posters, the easiest option would have been for police to keep an eye out for the vehicle breaking the law and pulling them up but i guess thats expecting too much. Good luck!

  • R3XNebular on 03/08/2014 - 12:58

    Can you clarify the state in which the infringements are coming from? Did you take down the details of the officer you were speaking to in qld? Sometimes some junior officers may be misinformed and you should ask to speak to the duty sergeant who may have more knowledge on the matter. At no point should you pay the fine or nominate for the fines to be paid onto spers as you are technically pleading guilty. I would personally take all the infringements to court and place the onus on the other party to prove you were driving.

    • Cave Fire on 03/08/2014 - 16:11

      I am in Brisbane, Queensland. the fines are with the council and now Transport and Mains Roads. I should add that the officers said the same thing, don't pay the fines, fill in a Stat Dec and go from there. What I was getting at is how can the fines go to me when it is just my cancelled plate that was detected. I was never the registered operator of the actual vehicle in the infringements. This is when the officers said I was liable for anything that happened with that plate. I can assume that getting the police report of the misuse will hold more weight as I then have something to prove it wasn't me. However…. the officers I spoke to said that as it is a Victorian plate, the Victorian police have to lodge the report. Which has left me unsure, I will spend tomorrow trying to get someone to take a report.

      • [Deactivated] on 03/08/2014 - 17:49
        +1

        This is just a wild stab in the dark, but maybe they chase you (despite it being illogical to) because there's currently no other option, and if anyone is going to be able to potentially lead them to the real offender it will/should be you - because you had the plates registered in your name last and that's fact, so you'd be the one to ask for details of the person/people you sold the car with plates to. Then they'd naturally go from there with the investigation.

        It sounds incredibly stressful for you and it does seem very unfair that they're targeting you with the infringements but I reckon you'll be okay. If you're innocent, you're innocent. It's just a real shame you didn't hold on to the relevant paperwork for the sale of the car.

        Are the plates still accumulating fines? You could always ask the cops to whack an ankle tracker on you so they always know where you are - and if a new fine comes up in a totally different location, they can't exactly say it's you. lol (joke… but nice in theory)

        So you have nothing to go by for the person you sold it to? No bank details (or did they pay you in cash for the car)?

        What kind of infringements is the car getting? I just find it bizarre that people do that sort of thing. Crazy.

        • Cave Fire on 03/08/2014 - 19:27

          I am receiving toll infringements and one from mains road is actually a toll infringement that's now converted to an unregistered vehicle fine. I guess I am the last person that will likely be on record. The guy who bought the car paid cash.

  • [Deactivated] on 03/08/2014 - 19:00
    +2

    Very frustrating and funny situation
    Tell them after all the hell of the funny game and going back and forth, why they dont just put that unregistered plate number into the hell of their system and like a proper police or whatsoever authorities STOP THE DAMN CAR and arrest the bloddy moron before potential future infringements?
    What if someone committed a serious crime?
    Thats a bit of a worry to wait until infringements happened then send the bill to someone else! Then call themselves police officers and like; ok we did the right thing for today officer, see you tomorrow! Happy life!
    But tell them very nicely and dont even mention my name ;)

    All the best
    Keep us posted

  • Cave Fire on 07/08/2014 - 11:37
    +2

    Hi all,

    Just a bit of an update. I spoke to the Police on two further occasions. Both officers said that again it's not a police matter and no report can be taken. The second time I actually went to the Head office. The police woman there said that all I would need (if the infringements were issued by the police) would be a stat dec saying I sold the old vehicle and was not in charge of the vehicle in the infringements. That's it. She added that some of the bodies that issue these fines can be "hawkish" and are looking for revenue. The lady from the council kept saying that "tolling is different" (the infringements were on a toll road) but I think they would all follow the same rules. I am getting further legal advice on Friday.

    • [Deactivated] on 07/08/2014 - 23:53
      +1

      good news
      keep posting

  • mung12 on 16/08/2014 - 02:04

    Hi shadako,
    I share the exact same experience with you, but my issue has already been resolved. I am from Victoria, previously my father had sold his 23 year old car along with the plates. A few months later, we kept receiving infringement notices from speeding, parking, tolls. Fortunately for us, we had the buyer's details so we filled in the back of the infringement form with his details. It was successful. Later, infringement notices kept piling in one after the other. We got about 3 notices in a week. I rang Vic Roads about this matter, and it seems that the buyer didn't hand in his VicRoads car transfer form, instead he paid the registration, thus my dad's name was still on the registration. I've called this lunatic countless of times and requested that should hand in the form. But he said he already sold the car to someone else. Now the plates are completely lost.
    When i called VicRoads, they told me they can not do anything about it. We were suppose to hand in the plates if we sold the car so it was not their responsibility. So i went to see the police and they said they could not file any report because it wasn't stolen.
    We got told by Vicroads, we could refund the registration since its under my dad's name and receive a large sum of money back ($600ish, was tempting haha), BUT my dad will still continue to receive infringements. The police also advised that we shouldn't do that, otherwise if this matter goes to court, it wouldn't benefit us.
    So after 3 months or so, with the continuous infringement notices , i went to the police station again, hoping it will be someone else that could help me. That officer told me that calling up VicRoads won't do any good. He advised me to turn up to one of the offices. So i went to Oakleigh VicRoads and it was a matter of explaining the situation and it was all done in 3 minutes. They took my dad's name off the plates. I would like to mention that the lady that saved us from all the future hassle was really kind and understanding (I think i fell in love with her haha)!

    I hope everyone can learn from our mistakes and don't let it happen to you in the future. Because it is a bitch.
    I hope you overcome this soon.

    Cheers, Michael

    • Cave Fire on 16/08/2014 - 13:38

      Well, I'm actually in Brisbane. Would be nice if they could do this over the phone for me, since I actually bought my vehicle without rego here in QLD and it wasn't supposed to be in my name in the first place…

      But yes, after getting chewed out by police about four times, I've sent everything I have to the council. Spoke to a Victorian police officer who didn't get why the fines were in my name because it's my old plates attached to a different vehicle. Had a fine withdrawn from Mains roads here because yes, it is a different vehicle in the infringements to the one I had in my name. Fingers crossed….

  • Cave Fire on 15/09/2014 - 16:09
    +3

    Hi got a letter waiving the infringements, thanks to everyone that responded.

    • kwaker on 16/09/2014 - 07:20

      thanks for the update

    • timmypete on 16/09/2014 - 17:01

      Glad to hear it all worked out!

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