hello, my mother recently recieved a fine for double parking while was at a red light. she was driving and as usual, stopped at a red light. while the car was breaked and stopped at the red light, i got out of the car because that is around where i needed to get off. does this count as double parking or is there a way i can contest this fine. thank you everyone. all information is valued.
Fined for double parking at red light. Please help [NSW]
L[Deactivated] on 07/07/2014 - 21:42
Comments
thank you for your reply. in this instance, there was no photo taken of the incident. is there a way to successfully contest this fine if there is no real proof?
If no photo then how did you get detected?
As Aceboy said… it is illegal to exit or enter a vehicle at a traffic light.
"and as usual, stopped at a red light."
You have done this before and got away with it?..
Cant see any way to get out of it, best to just pay the fine and not do it in future.
i believe it was an officer who witnessed it but i do not know if it was 1 or 2. what i meant was that the car stopped at red light because you don't go when the light is red. i should be recieving a fine for getting out of the car instead of double parking when there were no cars next to us.
also, i have been linked to this
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_reg/rr2008104/…
'There is no rule that states that a vehicle must be parked in order for a passenger to leave or enter the vehicle, only that the vehicle be not moving at the time.
There's nothing wrong or illegal with getting out of a vehicle when stopped at the traffic lights, provided, as required, the person leaving the vehicle does not create a hazard, as required by the relevant rule.'
not posted by me/
| it is illegal to exit or enter a vehicle at a traffic light.
Can you point to that law?
If i were in your position, i would use that to contest in court. No hazard, door next to kerb and no car movement. If your passenger door is not to the kerb, then it would be deemed hazardous.
If its a no stopping sign, then its game over.
If there was 2 officers in the car, 1 acts as a witness to the other. If it was a sole police officer and there is no other evidence you can contest, but I don't see what your defence is, if you got out and that's the law, what you going to do. In cases like these, it seems pretty harsh, I didn't know this was the case. I'd just show up to court and say it was an honest mistake, the car wasn't moving and it was safe. I've heard of people being let off for a hell of a lot worse. Just a shame these are the incidents we are paying for the police to hand out fines for. I got hoons doing burn outs up and down my street that kids frequently walk to and from school and the police don't wanna know me.
If you're a deceitful type person, you could always just argue you were about to throw up, didn't want to do it in the car. But otherwise, as above.
Lying is unnecessary, and only creates more problems.
It may be necessary if you want to get out of paying the fine….
Yeah, i once got pulled over and I was genuinely busting. I told the officer and he said "nice one, try that one with the judge"….wrote a letter and still had to pay the fine…
Quote from another forum
"189 Double parking
(1) A driver must not stop on a road:
(a) if the road is a two-way road — between the centre of the
road and another vehicle that is parked at the side of the
road; or
(b) if the road is a one-way road — between the far side of the
road and another vehicle that is parked at the side of the
road."
But a driver must stop on a road if the traffic lights are red….
If you have a licence you should know most of those, unless like a some of drivers who appear to have got their licence from the cornflakes one morning.
I agree.
Hmmm
That article says:
The old Australian custom of flashing your lights to warn oncoming vehicles of a police car up the road could get you fined.
What happened to freedom of speech?
In SA high beam headlights (for any reason) are prohibited in built up areas. Definition of "built up" is street light every 250(?)m.
@sirplus: Next time flash the low beam by turning the know on and off, to warn fellow drivers. Do you think it may work?
yeah… I thought so
You mean the US constitutional right that Australians have never had? Nothing happened to it, it never existed.
Anyone knows what the logic of the windows gap rule is about?
If the gap is big enough, someone could reach in and unlock the door - thus the vehicle is not secure.
I have heard stories of people leaving their windows down on purpose in areas where thieves frequent (e.g. train station car parks) so that the thieves can search their car without having to smash the window, only to receive a fine for not having properly secured their car.
That's scary, but if you're willing to give in to the thief, why not just not lock up?
@telljoolz: You miss the point. If you lock up, the thief will smash your windows even if you have nothing in the car. If you just leave it open, they can just search your car, find that there's nothing there and move onto the next one.
This is worthless opinion from a stranger on the Internet.
The offence isn't 'picking up or setting down passengers', but 'double parking'.
Does the fine specify Rule 189?http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_reg/rr2008104/…
189 Double parking
A driver must not stop on a road if to do so would put any part of the vehicle that he or she is driving between a vehicle that is parked on the road and the centre of the road.The reason most people do not get a fine when pulled up beside parked cars at a red light is in the notes for that division: "Rule 165 provides defences to the prosecution of a driver for an offence against a provision of this Division."
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_reg/rr2008104/…
165 Stopping in an emergency etc or to comply with another rule
(e) the driver stops at a particular place, or in a particular way, to comply with another provision of these Rules or a provision of another law, and the driver stops for no longer than is necessary to comply with the other provision.You mum was stopped to comply with Rule 56 Stopping for a red traffic light or arrow.
Provided your getting out of the car, after carefully checking behind you to make sure it was safe, did not delay your mum from moving off when the light turned green, she was not stopped "longer than is necessary".
For a $242 fine, and the situation you describe, you should contest it. Address the alleged offence, no need to mention anything about getting out of the car, lying about sickness, etc. Don't waste their time, be polite, etc.
Again, that's just words from a stranger. Smart you would consider getting proper advice. In Sydney, I use this law-speaking motoring enthusiast: http://www.lawstop.com.au/contact/
Just wondering, once you unload passengers (or goods) isn't your reason for stopping no longer to comply with another rule (in a particular way), even if you were incidentally complying with that rule?
No. OP's mum was stopped due to the red light. After OP alighted, the light was still red (as clarified by OP) and traffic was still stopped. Her reason for being stopped is the same.
OP's profile says they are in NSW and there is nothing in the NSW Road Rules restricting a passenger from getting into or out of a vehicle stopped at traffic lights, or that doing so makes the vehicle "parked".
The road rules also differentiate between stopped and parked. As seen in Rule 168 No Parking Signs, the driver may stop to drop off or pick up passengers, but must not park:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_reg/rr2008104/…
168 No parking signs
(1) The driver of a vehicle must not stop on a length of road or in an area to which a no parking sign applies, unless the driver:
(a) is dropping off, or picking up, passengers or goods, and
(b) does not leave the vehicle unattended, and
(c) completes the dropping off, or picking up, of the passengers or goods, and drives on, as soon as possible and, in any case, within the required time after stopping.The officer alleges OP's mum committed an offence of 'double parking', not that she was obstructing traffic or creating a hazard, or that OP unsafely exited the vehicle - the officer had the option of issuing an infringement notice for those offences if any of those were the case.
She was stopped at a red traffic light, not parked, and proceeded when it turned green. She didn't break the law, she shouldn't be fined.
Again, this is just my opinion and my words are not meant to sound officious or indicate I know what I'm talking about, I'm only attempting to be precise.
Like Thrift said.
To be double parked there'd have to be a car next to her only are you double parked every time you stop at a red light next to another car. Parked implies driver got out or at least engine turned off.
Your mum was standing at the traffic light in driver seat engine running, ready to go.
Perhaps they thought you were the driver and car was parked while she climbed in driver seat.
Either way I'd challenge.
To me it reads the double parking shouldn't have occurred at all as they were just stopped at a red light.
Getting out of the car shouldn't come into it as there wasn't a double parking.
Your mum should write a letter.
Say that she stopped at light. Passenger got up and left she didn't give permission or have opportunity to stop them. She doesn't agree with doing that but was not controlling the adult passenger when they did it.
Point to good driving record, say she will discuss with passenger so they don't do again.
Offer to give your details so you can receive a fine instead.
Ask for leniency.I agree that she should write a letter to contest, BUT..
I disagree that she should make up some excuse like that.
She'll have a far better chance of it being waived if she's honest and explains that neither she or the OP were aware that it was illegal to let a passenger out while stopped at a red light. Be honest, but without trying to use the ignorance as an excuse. Explain that you weren't aware, but appreciate learning the law now, and how you realise that it was potentially dangerous, and that you will not do it again. Then ask for leniency [based on good driving record, if applicable].
Keep it simple, don't try to overcomplicate it. They'll see through any BS excuses in an instant - this is what they deal with day in, day out.
Explain that you weren't aware, but appreciate learning the law now
What law?
First, there doesn't appear to be any law restricting someone getting out of a vehicle stopped at traffic lights.
Second, the police are alleging OP's mum broke the law by double parking. In the situation described by OP, she wasn't double parked but stopped due to a red light, which is actually required by law.
I also suspect that trying to pass off the act of the passenger hopping out of the car "without permission" and not having the "opportunity to stop them" could backfire, as it's so obviously untrue AND as a driver, you are responsible for what happens (at least in the eyes of the law here), eg. passengers not wearing seatbelts - driver cops a fine, etc.
How do we no it is not true. I know driver cops a fine for seatbelt but is that true for this offence.
I actually think it is wrong for the mother to have a fine for the actions of the passenger.
But then they will say that his mum is responsible for all passengers in the car, which she is.
Yeah, I was once asked (by hospital)to drive someone to emergency who had taken a drug overdose (suicide attempt).
Passenger was delirious and although I had strapped them in they kept unbuckling.
Cops pulled me over, refused to escort me the remaining 1 block to casualty, delayed me 15 mins doing rego license checks then booked me for passenger not wearing seatbelt. Told me I was lying about going to hospital even though I showed them the empty drug packet.
My partner went to the cop shop the next day and escalated to the boss who basically said 'them's the rules'.
It really soured my opinion of police that day.I would have ignored them and went straight to the hospital, take the injured person out, bring him into the emergency bay and explain after. I would have also noted the officers name/ID if they chose to pursue the fine.
I also believe they can't accuse you of something without proof? If they said "A empty drug packet does not mean anything" that would be okay.
@sunarde:
I had no idea when I stopped that they would be monsters or yes I would have continued the 500m to the hospital.re. I would have also noted the officers name/ID if they chose to pursue the fine. I got fined, couldn't afford it at the time either. When it was reported to the boss at the cop shop he said yes they did the wrong thing but the fine is legit as passenger had taken off seatbelt.
It was a bit traumatic, middle of the night getting harassed by cops who have pulled me over fishing for fines while I have a friend in the passenger seat that as far as I know is dying.
Annoyingly I couldn't escalate to make to big a deal as the passenger wanted to maintain confidentiality after being so stupid.
Law of necessity
http://www.judcom.nsw.gov.au/publications/benchbks/criminal/…
Basically speaking you can break any law, if breaking that law was for the purpose of preventing a greater evil provided that the law you break is reasonable and proportionate to the evil you are preventing. Think of self defense when getting people off manslaughter.
You could legally drive without a license/speed etc if you had to do it if it were to prevent a death. Of course if you had other options of calling an ambulance instead or any lesser means of preventing a greater evil then you have to use those first because the law you break to prevent the death has to be reasonable and proportionate.
Driving someone even though they are unbuckling themselves because they had a drug overdose and were at risk of dying? You could probably have a decent argument it was reasonable to attempt to drive them. You probably could have had a decent case of jumping in your car and driving off on the cops if you wanted to argue it and believed your friend was dying.
Perhaps while the OP was hopping out, the lights changed leaving the OPs car double parked (as their is clear space in front and green light).
Most police only bother to issue a ticket when their is a reason, and holding up traffic would usually do the trick.
In that situation the appropriate offence would be "Rule 125 (1) Unreasonably obstruct driver/pedestrian" ( http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/usingroads/downloads/demerits-gene… ).
Don't contest the fine. Admit to it but ask for leniency if your mother has a good driving record. Often if your record is clear and you weren't doing something ridiculous or dangerous they'll let you off and record a warning on the licnece.
Edit: Taking a different spin on this the traffic police are there to ensure that everyone follows the rules. If you don't they can warn or fine you. The warning/fine is to teach you to not do the wrong thing. Stuff like speeding is obvious to MOST people, other more obscure laws are either forgotten many years on from learning your rules before you take a test, or never learnt in the first place. Its about time they started doing some knowledge refresher training when you renew your licence ie a few questions on a computer, like for learners, each time you renew your licence.
From what OP has described, OP's mum did not break any rules. Why ask for leniency if you haven't done anything wrong?
other more obscure laws are either forgotten many years on from learning your rules before you take a test
Given that she was stopped in traffic and not double parked, what obscure law did OP's mum break?
This is interesting. Get back to us on the outcome. So, could we be in the wrong when stopping to reverse parallel park?
NO, that is not double parking. It is preparing to park, you have no intention of staying there any longer than necessary to perform the park. If you let out a passenger before reverse parking then you would be double parked.
BTW which lane was she in when you got out. Was it a dual lane road. and was she in the righthand lane?
This may have an impact on your situation.
———-TRAFFIC LIGHT RED———-
——-[walkway]—— [my car] | [no car] || [other side] | [other side] [walkway]
—————————-[other car]
[no stop sign ^] [parked car]
—————————-[parked car]
—————————-[parked car]this is a bad drawing of how it was. i got out from the passenger seat directly onto the walkway. there was no car next to us so i have no idea how it is a double parking
also i left the car before the light turned green
Similar situation to mine…
Parent got fined for dropping me off at Fairfield station. He contested and it immediately got declined. I'm afraid this is one of those cases where you just need to foot the bill :(
To my knowledge, you are NOT allowed to exit the vehicle at any point in time while stopped at red lights. If you argue that you were stopped kerbside, they would just get you for a "no stopping" infringement based on the "no stopping" sign.
supermario101 please tell us what you do, i am watching (and learning) with interest.
my ONLY contribution is to NEVER admit an offence, either at the time of it occurring or later (either verbally or in writing) and ignorance of the law will NEVER get you off an offence in court - ever - period.
I wouldn't pay the fine, i would not write a letter but i would appear for myself with the info found in these links above (also racq offer free legal advice if your mums a member) and argue your case…
Actually your advice is wrong.
Admitting to an offence actually could get you off the hook.For example, if you speed and it is your first offence within the last 2 years, you can get off it with a official warning IF you ADMIT you did wrong. You won't get off it by denying or making up excuses.
http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?document_id=10369
For the OP, maybe the driver can get a official warning…. if he/she hasn't commited any offence within the last few years.
Basically you need to write a letter in saying something along the lines of "I have held a valid licence for every x years and haven't had any offences within the last 2 years. I have done wrong, I am now aware that I cannot park at a red light and let passengers alight. Hopefully this fine can be changed to a official warning in light of my clean record."
This would generally get you off it if the driver hasn't commited any other offences within the last 2-3years.
if the driver hasn't commited any other offences within the last 2-3years.
Wonder what kind of leeway I could get if/when I get my first speeding fine after twenty five years of driving - Mach 1 in a school zone? :p
There is 0 leniency in a school zone. It doesn't matter if you've been driving for 100 years without issue and got caught doing 1km/h over. They're very clear on this.
I would love it if it worked that way but alas it doesn't anymore. Ever cop has a recorder, when you admit it you have made their case and they will then pretend to care but still book you as you have admitted it.
Never admit an offence! With a dead body at your feet, blood dripping from your hands and the gun still smoking, admit nothing! Don't explain, don't say a thing, get a lawyer or walk away. Nothing you say will help you its LAW101
The fine sounds wrong - if the car's engine is still running and the driver is still in the car…the car is "standing" not "parked"…the question is…do you pay the fine…or waste a day and endure a lot of stress to contest the fine in court?
But you should also consider only getting out of a car when it is properly parked. As a passenger you don't have a good view of what is around the vehicle and might open the door into the path of a cyclist (allowed to pass to the left of a vehicle)…there have been a few deaths and a lot of injury because of this (me included) - I've been "doored" several times by passengers thinking "I'll just get out here" while the car they're in is still in traffic.
I recommend you pay the fine and consider what you did could have some devastating circumstances and you were just lucky this time.
I recommend you pay the fine and consider what you did could have some devastating circumstances and you were just lucky this time.
The only reason to pay this fine is if OP's mum actually double parked.
"Devastating consequences" and "lucky this time"? That's any driver or passenger opening a door. Everyone should check before opening the door. If OP exited the vehicle safely and without creating a hazard, then why is a punishment needed?
If the issue was that OP unsafely exited the vehicle, the police should have issued OP with a $311 fine for the offence "Rule 269 (3) Cause hazard to person/vehicle (door open/alighting)".
it's russian roulette with other people's health at best.
I'll just get out here dear… http://vimeo.com/44771653
That still doesn't explain why someone should be fined if they did not break the law.
talk to law access and see what they think.
obviously the cops were being petty and ridiculous and if you didn't do anything wrong and you just pay the fine and don't take it to court they will keep getting away with it and keep doing it.
One thing interesting about contesting these fines is proof. You need to submit evidence to support your argument. without it you don't have much chance of having the fine reversed, unless you are admitting guilt and asking for leniency. Even then I would not hold much hope. I have contested 3 fines(in the last 12 month) have won each time. 2 of the 3 cases I won, I never received any correspondence informing me they had cancelled the fine(I have checked my demerit points. all perfect). 1 of the cases I did receive a letter from the prosecution informing me that they where not going to proceed with the case. that was after writing a letter to state debt recovery office which was rejected. Had to elect to go to court though. 2 were parking fines(1 with loss of demerit points) and 1 was a driving infringement.
One of the fines was stopping in a bus zone. many schools have a kiss and drop scheme. like going through the drive though at maccas. cars line up on the street and as you approach your number is called out and the kids come and they get in the car. because the line is so long you have line up in the street. one of the sections of the street is a bus zone. because the cars are driving very slowly it would seem you are parked but the engine is on and the car was crawling very slowly. out of nowhere a ranger appeared and fined about 10 cars while abusing the parents for parking in a bus zone. every one paid except for us because they could not be bothered going through the hassle of writing a letter and/or going to court. lesson is if have done nothing wrong fight it.I see cabbies do this all the time do they get fined?
A truck trying to get into a tight parking spot. Stop at red lights, let co-driver down to help with parking, is the idiot going to issue a fine?The person who issued the fine does not fit to live in this world, we would have a much better world without the person.
I can not agree with you more skillet.
Fine should be contested, and if the law isn't on ur side the law needs to change.
I think there are exceptions to cabbies given their role on the roads. But I think they also get fined for misconduct too.
As for trucks, I believe the laws are different. If the police believes the actions are to improve "safety", given the limited visibility of trucks, no fine will be issued for it. However, if they were caught dropping one off in a similar circumstance to OP, then they will be fined without question.
I'm 2-sided about the situation. I was fined for a similar infringement myself. However, I believe they are doing the right thing by promoting safety on the roads. Should a vehicle swerve to avoid the stopped vehicle in the middle of the road, they could potentially impale the occupant exiting the vehicle. My 2 cents
Here in Victoria there are charities (red cross etc…) that walk up and down the red lights at traffic lights shaking their can of coins for donations, in between cars etc. I have also seen them get caught in between cars and hold traffic when the light has been green.
Also, what about the annoying people that jump out and try and clean your windscreen for a couple of dollars (while probably on centerlink benefits)? I have also seen these people hold traffic while giving change for a note.
These examples really annoy me as a driver, and if the police will not do anything with these, I do not see a problem exiting or entering a car, as long as the traffic is not moving for you to delay other road users.
Cabies may disregard no stopping signs (at least here in NSW) in the Sydney CBD only. http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_reg/rr2008104/…
But they pretty much ignore them everywhere to pick up a fare. IMO No greater danger on our roads than a cabbie with their light on. They will do anything.
I think the op disappeared… LoL
You guys get worked up debating more than the rep.
Honestly it's simply not safe to get out of the car at lights,
Either you get hurt or you end up blocking traffic if the light turns green .
The fact you got out in time is not a justification
Nonsense, getting out of a car at the traffic lights isn't absolutely unsafe, nor are 'getting hurt' and 'blocking traffic' the only possible outcomes. Nor is it illegal, so those that do are not doing anything wrong.
However, that is off-topic. OP's mum was given an infringement for breaking the law when it seems she did not commit any offence. That is not right, and it is in her best interest to contest it.
How many OzBargainers would just give up $242 for no reason?
As for OP's whereabouts, what more is there for OP to say? OP has been up-voting replies, so has been getting the information.
I agree, wouldnt even pay a dollar in this case. I think if ordinary citizen continue to pay these rubbish (and ridiculously high) fines, the law enforcers will pay more attention to issuing these tickets rather than stopping crimes.
It depends on the age of the passenger I think.
If I remember correctly its like a no seat belt fine, it depends on the age of the person commiting it, if he/she is under 16 or was it 18, then the fine would go to the driver.
i got fined for letting off my mother at a zebra crossing one time ffs
Next time you should stop first! :p
I'm not a lawyer but you really need to consult with a lawyer on this one to get the right advice.
Some potential issues I see:
- Make sure you check the ticket for which offense is actually charged and read what the actual law is on the offense specified. If you think that you have a case that you don't think you are actually guilty of this charge, making an internal review might result in you being charged with the correct offense instead, so it might be more desirable to go to court so that they are less likely to withdraw the charge and issue a new one for the correct offense.
- Police officers/parking inspectors are professional witnesses, so this might stack against you in court
- If you admit to doing any of this at all, that could be used against you.
- It might be a potential offense committed by the passenger rather than the driver, depending on the wording of the law and whose fault it was that the passenger did this
- Only a lawyer can really help you with this. Find out if NSW Police (or the enforcing agency) usually pays costs for cases they lose and if you actually have a case from a lawyer.Good advice, before engaging a lawyer though I'd have a good look around for some sort of advocacy or support group where you may be able to get a clearer picture of what you are getting into.
Try and find a dedicated forum. Maybe there's something on Facebook?It depends on which avenue you want to pursue.
Do you want to prove you are innocent or do you want to be guilty and plea for a lighter sentence?I'm not sure about NSW but they prob have a similar rule to VIC.
If you admit you were wrong, and you don't have any driving offences within the last 2-3 years, you can write in a letter to them saying you were wrong, and you will repent. Then they will change the fine to a official warning, which you do not have to pay.If you want to prove you were correct, then this might cost you heaps of money, make sure you know the costs before doing so.
Only use a lawyer if it is worth contesting. If this a fine for <$500, then no point in using a lawyer as a lawyer may cost you about as much as the fine.
If you win then sometimes the other party will pay. I have heard that Victoria Police usually pay the defendant's legal fees if VicPol lose, I have no idea about NSW. You're not going to win compensation for your time even if you win and there is a chance that the fine would be even higher if you lose. Best to have an initial consult with a lawyer (eg: Community Legal Centre) to see if there is really a case if you believe that the fine is not legal according to law.
next time you should have acted like there was a problem with the car, put on the hazards, both get out, 1 person disappears, other person opens the bonnet, closes, and drives off..
it might be the dumbest question, but will a cab driver get fine for doing this?
Not a dumb question. They can be fined if an officer deems it
i never saw someone stopping them to do this in north sydney that they blocking all the traffic behind every single day!
Taxi drivers must have different rules to the rest of us - I don't know how else to explain their driving 'techniques'.
@McFly: they have a powerful lobby group and can call on a lot of govt influence.
This is the reason why it costs to much to have them drive you somewhere. While they make you sick because they can't use the accelerator properly.
Try and wiggle you way if you can.
If not help your mum pay for it. Consider it taxi fare ;)
I know someone who got fined by a parking officer for double parking whilst waiting for another car to get out at Cabramatta carpark. There truly are some ridiculous fines out there… I did write a ridiculous letter back but they have all the time and do not have to skip work to go to court.
I have been driving for 10 years and things like this rarely happen unless you are usually in the wrong and eventually get caught. Pay the fine, don't do it again.
That's the worst mentality. "This doesn't occur very often therefore you must be in the wrong and you should pay the fine."
I would love him as a customer, add in extortionate fees every now and then
Hey OP, I heard that the real story is that your mum successfully fought off a carjacker!!! ;) ;) ;)
hahahahaha!
i think there is more to the story than you're telling us.
God there's some narky people around here. OP you can contest it, defend the fine and if you lose the defence, run a plea. No magistrate should be punishing you for such a trivial offence unless your mother already has a traffic record as long as her arm. Good luck.
Tell the truth OP. You were fined for throwing a mushroom at another car…
Very interesting thread. Sounds like its something that can be contested.
IMHO, even if there is a regulation against a passenger stepping out of the vehicle at a stop light, which, if I read correctly higher up on the thread, there isn't, your mum's citation was for being double parked.
Whatever the circumstances, if her actions do not satisfy the definition of being double parked, then the citation should be contested.
i dont think you are allowed to get out of the car, especially if its at the red lights.
Otherwise you may block traffic if the light change and you are still getting off, i know you didn't, but that will be the reason why you are not allowed.