e-cigarettes & e-shishas - should they be allowed - Voting needed for guideline change

neil on 10/03/2014 - 12:52

We have looked into the legal ramifications of allowing e-cigarette deals and while the laws are murky at this current point in time, there is no clear reason for a ban.

The Department of Health pointed us to the TGA. This is what they have to say:

Some states and territories have legislation prohibiting the marketing of products that resemble tobacco products

Which is basically passing the buck to state legislation.

Customs. Legal to import ecigarettes as long as they don't make therapeutic claims:

If E-Cigarettes are detected at the border appearing to make a therapeutic claim, the goods may be referred to the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA). The TGA will advise whether further action is warranted, whether any claims made are classed as therapeutic, and whether seizure is appropriate under their Act.

If no therapeutic claim is made, or the TGA determines that no action is warranted, the goods are released, as they are not controlled on importation.

This forum post explains a bit more

However,

If we open up e-cigarette deals, we would restrict it to

  • non-nicotine containing products (e.g. just the vaporizer).
  • not making therapeutic statements in the deal title/description/rep comments.

But are e-cigarette and e-shishas deals what you want? Vote and let us know in the comments.

Please note that there will be NO changes to other cigarette/Tobacco and related items that are banned Australia-wide by the Tobacco Advertising Prohibition Act 1992.

Should E-Cigarette & E-Shisha Deals be allowed on OzBargain?

Poll Options expired

  • 27
    Yes, they should be allowed on OzBargain.
  • 49
    No, they shouldn't be allowed on OzBargain.
  • 1
    Not sure or no opinion.
Site Discussion E-Cigarette

Comments

  • Food on 10/03/2014 - 12:56

    NO, they shouldn't be allowed.
    I know people who are ADDICTED to the e-shisha pens. Even though they don't contain any nicotine, they are still addictive.

    • nubzy on 10/03/2014 - 12:59
      +3

      How? I have tried one, they are nothing but water vapour and a very slight flavour additive. Not addictive at all.

      I don't see a problem with allowing them really, if it helps people get off the smokes then thats a good thing.

      • Food on 10/03/2014 - 13:04
        -3

        My son has told me at his high school, almost everyone is doing them. Every second they get, at breaks/toilets/even in class. If you need to do them constantly, don't you think they're addictive?
        Maybe they're alright for people trying to get off ciggys..

        • mskeggs on 10/03/2014 - 13:18
          +2

          Sounds like a bit of a Moral Panic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic
          When I was at school it was yo-yos we were playing with incessantly. A few months later it was footy cards. If sucking on a water vapour stick stays trendy for very long I'll be amazed.

        • nubzy on 10/03/2014 - 13:23

          They are young kids trying to fit in, there are always fads at school.

        • c0balt on 10/03/2014 - 13:49

          I am a smoker and I need to check ozbargain more often than I do have a real cigarette.

          It doesn't mean the idiots who say to ban ozbargain are right though.

        • scrimshaw on 10/03/2014 - 14:25
          +1

          RE: Moral Panic.

          When I was in school, they banned Poke/Digimon trading cards because the parents thought the kids were engaging in gambling.

          Of course trading cards have died now that everyone (including adults) are into Facebook games. But the same principle really. It's a fad that will die out.

        • Food on 10/03/2014 - 14:26
          -1

          On Fri there was a big bust. There was two people selling them, and they're off to the cops. This is year/grade 8 we're talking about here

        • c0balt on 10/03/2014 - 14:34
          +5

          I'd feel so embarrassed if my father was a crusader against flavored propylene glycol vapor.

        • [Deactivated] on 15/03/2014 - 02:16
          -1

          It's the new gateway drug! Can't you see?!

          /feigned panic

        • centrelink on 25/03/2015 - 17:23

          Looks like they are just trying to be "cool".

          I've heard young girls who are desperate to be cool with all the teeny bopper/ petty gang stuff that they will do anything, even giving up their bodies. It's sad really and after they've done that, they begin to act even more cocky towards their peers because they "belong" to a petty gang.

          It really is one of those things, like yoyos, tamagotchi.. balh blah blah its just one of those sagas that will die off.

        • Food on 25/03/2015 - 17:45

          @spn: Yep it has died off, only the real brain dead people are still doing it.

    • h0mbre on 10/03/2014 - 15:31

      Tell your son to stay in the library, its dangerous outside.

      My brother in law (finished high school last year) always wants to have a go on my vaporiser, not because he's addicted but because he's a clown and wants to do smoke tricks to impress his other dweeb, LoL playing friends. I never let him.

    • pebee47 on 11/03/2014 - 17:28

      I've been addicted to tobacco for years. One of the worst addictions around. Tried everything but stuff from Doctor. If an e-cig did the trick at least I wouldn't get all the tars and other chemicals.

      • Food on 11/03/2014 - 17:33
        +1

        I do agree, if it helps existing tobacco smokers quit, you do it. Not such a good idea for people starting off/being led into this stuff. "yes, it's harmless"… you get addicted to it.. having to go out of your job every 30mins to smoke it.

      • nubzy on 11/03/2014 - 18:49

        You should try nasal snuff or Swedish snus. I'm not addicted to tobacco but use them in moderation for the nicotine.

    • giventofly on 27/05/2018 - 12:44

      I've seen alcohol posts on here. What's your thoughts on those?

  • Draxxx on 10/03/2014 - 13:05

    I think they should. Having said that, I haven't seen many offers within Australia that could be considered value for money. All gear is much cheaper OS.
    Until legislation changes and e-cigs fall in the same bucket as other tobacco items (even though there is no tobacco..) they should be allowed.
    Maybe an '18+' category needs be created, and visibility of said products restricted/allowed based on age. Just a thought..

  • Almost Banned on 10/03/2014 - 13:19
    +7

    I don't smoke and hate smoking and everything connected with it.
    I wouldn't want or be interested in these type of deals BUT…
    some people here might and I don't see why my dislike of these products is relevant to their ability to share information about it.
    So, although it pains me to say it, I think they should be allowed.

  • mskeggs on 10/03/2014 - 13:23
    +1

    I don't feel super strongly about this one way or the other, except to suggest the government produces a large amount of regulation already. Adding to it should probably be done cautiously.
    I kind of like that OzB has standards that are higher than "what is legal" (e.g. gambling deals) but I am conscious that there are deals I have found beneficial (e.g. alcohol or contraception) that would get others knickers in a twist.
    So given the option, I fall on the less regulation side.

  • cruise on 10/03/2014 - 13:29
    +3

    18+ seems to be a better option IMO. After all Alcohol is addictive, bad for your health and carries huge costs for the community and cigs and junk food are the same and these are not banned. Infact alcohol and junk food consumption seems to be encouraged based on some of the deals here on ozbargain (maybe we should ban alcohol junk food posts).

    Unless they are any more harmful to a person's health than any of these then why ban them?

    • infinite on 13/03/2014 - 10:28

      Unlike junk food and booze though, you don't wreck OTHER peoples health & the environment at the same time, when you consume it.

  • shortblack9 on 11/03/2014 - 12:24
    +8

    Firstly, I joined here just so I can comment. My vote has a healthcare professional is NO until they are tested for safety.

    In relation to the legality, I have worked in the drug industry and the law around nicotine is actually very clear. It may be legal to import e-cigarettes under customs laws, it is however not legal to possess nicotine in e-cigarette format without a prescription. The link to the e-cig forum post is very good and explains it well without bias.

    I have had discussions with smoking cessation researchers here in Australia and the UK. They are keen for the safety of the e-cigarette formulations to be established. At the moment, the most prominent smoking cessation researchers/specialists (in Australia and UK) are resisting the use of these products because the excipient chemicals (chemicals that make up all other ingredients in the delivered vapour, other than nicotine) have not had their safety assessed.

    From my perspective as a pharmacist, I couldn't in all honest promote an e-cig product. I have seen some of the excipient chemicals and they are known irritants which have the potential to cause all sorts of lung issues, especially the flavours. And I'm not convinced that the effect is only localised to the mouth, vapour is designed for inhalation and that means it goes in the lungs (regardless of how carefully someone inhales).

    Does that mean I want to protect people from themselves? To a degree, yes. But I'm looking at the big picture, what health issues will develop in these people desperate to quit smoking tobacco, switching to something that is likely to cause harm also but in an unknown manner? I'm not saying smoking is better, I'm saying that the risk of using e-cigs is unknown and with all the current available treatments could be an unnecessary risk.

    Full Disclosure: I used to work for a company that made Nicotine replacement products. I am still a registered pharmacist. I also studied toxicology at university so drug safety is something I have an interest in.

    • pyramid on 11/03/2014 - 14:45
      +1

      shortblack9 - you are legend. Excellent and detailed reply with necessary information.

    • nubzy on 11/03/2014 - 15:56

      Personally I think Swedish Snus and nasal snuff are the key to getting people off cigarettes, they have been proven to be significantly safer than cigarettes, yet the government bans the sale of them in Australia.

    • frutter on 23/04/2014 - 09:19

      is it true that nicotine replacement products have half the dose than that required to be effective in quitting,
      I have a hunch that some of this smoking bussiness could be marketing schemes

      • NosDan on 23/04/2014 - 11:30
        -1

        I have a hunch that some of this smoking bussiness could be marketing schemes

        i thought it was pretty obvious that its little different to the cocaine market. you have people on the "bad" side of the industry making billions (the cartels etc) and you have ones on the "good" side making out to crack down on it but never trying to hard there for keeping job security while profiting massively from it (cops/governments etc)

        both drugs are extremely dangerous, addictive and harmful (tho there is some evidence smoking is actually worse for you) the only thing that changes is which drugs involved.

      • shortblack9 on 08/08/2015 - 20:44

        Smoking cessation products aren't designed to work in the way most people assume. And admittedly, most pharmacists have no idea.

        But no, it's not true that the smoking cessation products have half the dose. It depends upon the person and how addicted they are to nicotine. It may require a combination of patch and gum to relieve the craving. It's not once size fits all. Unfortunately, people and some healthcare professionals think that nicotine replacement products are… but if they actually took the time to read and familiarise themselves with the guidelines they would know that each quitting course needs to be tailored to the person.

        PS. sorry for the late reply… I didn't understand the Ozbargain commenting system. I'm going back and replying to posts now :)

  • forever saving on 11/03/2014 - 14:18
    +1

    OzBargain is and always has been a community site. Who are we to decide what people should and shouldn't buy? Let people put the deals there and let the community decide on it's worth.

    • fruit on 12/03/2014 - 11:26

      We are the community.

    • infinite on 13/03/2014 - 10:26

      Aren't we as the community the one's who should if we should/shouldn't promote cigarettes and their sub-products, then?

    • Davo1111 on 14/03/2014 - 01:23
      +1

      Let the community decide on it's worth.

      Hence the vote now? if we have a straight up vote, it will put all bitching in future posts to rest.

  • Rel63 on 11/03/2014 - 16:48

    Unless all "junk" food and alcohol deals are removed i feel the e-cigs should be allowed or unless e-cigs are banned for sale. I know there are health regs for takeaway shops but how many follow them, how many workers know or care about hygiene. Alcohol is one of the most dangerous "legal" products for sale for consumption but is still legal. Why not this product that is legal to sell/buy to assist reducing or stopping smoking.
    It may or may not be a health risk but so is leaving your house. Other options may not work for some. Plus kids/teens do some silly or downright stupid stuff, eventually they get over it.

    • infinite on 13/03/2014 - 10:24

      Junk food doesn't ruin OTHER peoples health though, when you consume it.

      • Rel63 on 13/03/2014 - 11:14
        -1

        Nor do e-cigs!

  • goosegog on 11/03/2014 - 22:07
    -1

    WHERE IS THE HARM? These are harmless & can be used anywhere to help us smokers still feel that we can still enjoy the company of other people without offending them with our "obnoxious" tobacco stench. I use mine on planes, restaurants,in pubs & NOBODY CAN COMPLAIN. IT IS A VAPOUR ONLY. I have been asked in the past re the e-cig from establishments because it does look like a true cigarette but once told they are good about it. To my mind it is a great product which helps us smokers to cut down & finally give up altogether whilst not polluting the atmosphere & other people.

    • fruit on 12/03/2014 - 11:27
      +1

      Just because it's vapour doesn't mean you can vape that stuff on a packed flight, think of others.

    • mskeggs on 12/03/2014 - 13:33
      +1

      If the vapour still contains nicotine it still has health issues (heart disease for example). And the comment up thread by a pharmacist that other components are of unknown toxicity.
      That said, I agree it is dramatically better than smoke.

      • goosegog on 26/05/2014 - 15:15
        -1

        It Is VAPOUR - NO NICOTINE - so where is any problem !?

  • infinite on 12/03/2014 - 11:37
    +2

    Legalities and those related issues aside, to be honest I don't really think OzBargain needs to stoop as low as introducing e-cigarette, e-shisha & Cigarette deals / advertising. It's bad enough half the grocery deals are stuffed full of booze products/sales/advertising instead of actual grocery listings, and this is the last thing we need added.

    • Davo1111 on 14/03/2014 - 01:25

      stoop as low

      I seriously doubt the introduction of e-cig deals is going to affect ozbargain's bottom line (either positively or negatively)

  • samfisher5986 on 12/03/2014 - 12:06
    +1

    Its not something I want to see on ozbargain unless its a good deal and has been posted without any incentive but to share.

    So restricting the posting of it to those with accounts over a year old would be a good compromise.

  • Moderatorneil on 22/04/2014 - 15:19

    Just to update this thread.

    Going by the vote, it's pretty clear that members do not want e-cigarette deals. I also notice that WA have now banned the sale of e-cigarettes and have prosecuted a website selling them.

    There were definitely some great points made here and obviously this issue is not a black and white one. We'll continue to monitor the e-cigarette situation in Australia and if there is a demand for these deals by the community.

    As it stands, the ban on e-cigarettes will remain.

    • Food on 22/04/2014 - 19:04
      +1

      Good choice Neil! Onya WA

  • georgesc on 09/09/2014 - 22:11

    man, I just missed this convo, anyway, I'm a vaper and I couldn't care less if vaping deals are not in OZB since I already source everything for overseas.
    Saying that, I suggest some people, like Food, to dial down the paranoia, yes, it might come to be that vaping is not innocuous, but given all the vices that we are already allowed to it shouldn't be a big deal.
    …
    and regarding the "somebody please think of the children!" line, Kids have/are smoking, drinking, doing drugs and shagging around already anyway, if my children had to have a "vice", I rather let it be vaping.

  • goosegog on 10/09/2014 - 14:43

    E-Cigarettes are a devise to help people to wean themselves off from the main highly toxic brands of cigarettes which have been & still are available. Why do you all demean a product that helps to reduce the amount of toxic smokers? This product contains no harmful chemicals whilst helping who wish to quit a way out whilst still having the thought of a cigarette. With regard to children trying them - they will be better than the real thing as they won't poison their bodies. It's obvious that all kids try something that they shouldn't- better an E-cig than a real one + of course the cannabis,ecstacy & more hard core drugs they find & indulge with.
    I for one will continue with my E- cigs & agree with georgesc that paranoia has set in again with do gooders who have no insight into the way this could alleviate the major smoking problem overall.
    My husband & I travel a lot. I smoke my E-cig in airport lounges & the plane at times if the flight is a long one - I have never encountered a problem AS THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH THEM- THEY ARE FREE OF ANY TOXINS.
    I've also smoked mine in restaurants both at home & on cruise ships & the only comments ever made have been from others who want to know where to purchase them from.
    What will be next? Will they ban Nebulizers as they too contain vapour !
    In addition with toxic vapours how about the government still allowing burn offs which throw potentially harmful smoke & fumes to the air for us all to have to breathe in whilst also causing lives & homes to be lost?
    I truly believe that in the scheme of things my E- cig causes no damage so PUFF to all of you who do not agree.
    The only reason the government wants them banned is loss of tax revenue - can't tax a vapour!

  • mr kindface on 11/12/2014 - 13:12
    -1

    https://www.ozbargain.com.au/search/node/nicorette?

    Why are other nicotine replacement therapies allowed on ozbargain and these aren't? Electronic cigarettes are saving lives at an incredible rate. If I were to post a deal on useless nicorette inhalers that would be perfectly fine but e-cig gear (same ingredients as the nic inhalers) would be banned? I really feel sorry for all the smokers who are not aware of electronic cigarettes, or are being turned off by the bullcrap being spewed out by the media/NRT/tobacco companies.

  • Temptation on 23/03/2015 - 15:28

    Hello all, I know i am bumping old threads at this moment, but is it still against the banned items if we do Post about vaporizer?

    • Moderatorneil on 23/03/2015 - 15:30

      Yes, the ban is still in place.

      • Temptation on 23/03/2015 - 15:33

        Thanks Neil, just wanted to clarify before I get flamed.

        • NosDan on 23/03/2015 - 16:27
          +2

          before I get flamed.

          or vaporized :)

  • goosegog on 24/03/2015 - 16:59
    +2

    Have just received my e cigs + nicotine menthol vapour last week. I am now COMPLETELY off normal cigarettes.
    My total question is why the government dislikes & bans these extremely helpful devises ( apart from earning revenue of course ) They don't give a rats arse re the health issue on normal tobacco - just haven't worked out a strategy yet to explain a tax on E - Cigs they could apply.
    How come nicorette products are allowed - what is the difference between this product ( who also sell nicotine diffusers ) as opposed to an electronic cigarette which also only contains a low level of nicotine?

  • Speckled Jim on 27/05/2018 - 21:33
    +1

    I quit cigs just over two years ago when I started vaping 12mg nic juice. I haven't felt this good since my teenage pre-smoking days.

    Oh, and to the "pharmacist", shortblack9, you have been proven 100% wrong, just months after your comments were posted.
    By Dr. Michael Mosley of BBC Horizon, no less.

    Since that programme aired, UK doctors have been advocating for e-cigs to be used by more smokers as a cessation strategy. I'm not expecting such a progressive attitude to public health in Australia.
    We can't even maintain road safety education for kids.

    • serrin on 29/05/2018 - 16:05

      Firstly, congratulations on quitting cigarettes. It is a struggle that you will have to live with for the rest of your life, but stay strong, it'll greatly reduce your risk of strokes, heart attacks, penile cancer and erectile dysfunction. I always mention the last two to younger people as they don't really care much about the first two.
      However, electric nicotine vaporising devices are not really a 100% safe alternative to combustible tobacco and there is wide disagreement as to whether it should be marketed as a safe alternative to tobacco or not. The British are pretty firmly in the "yes" side, USA is leaning on the "yes" side, the Canadians and us Australians are still a solid "maybe, needs more evidence" corner. It's pretty obvious why Dr Michael Mosley says what he does, most of his colleagues believe the same thing. He's not the first British to say this, various people in the UK have been championing this since 2011.
      The scientific healthcare community (I use the term because that's what we should be practising, healthcare based on sound science, no on anecdotal evidence) is very slow to move onto new treatments and trends, and so it should be, these are the lives of millions that we're talking about here. Smoking is an unsolved issue in modern society and it's been 50+ years since the British Physicians study first demonstrated the real harms of of tobacco smoking.
      There's no current right or wrong answer to whether electric nicotine vaporising devices are beneficial to society as there is serious concern that the tobacco industry is buying into the e-cigarette industry and ostensibly to promote it to teenagers. I'm no paediatrician, but this is not a good thing. Does this outweigh the potential good that e-cigarettes have on quitting smoking? Maybe?
      Anyway, if anybody is interested, the BMJ (British Medical Journal, the publication of the British Medical Society, which is basically the peak body of doctors in the UK) regularly publish updates of the argument as it stands. Here is their latest editorial piece, Oxford Professor in the Yes corner, University of Ottawa in the No corner. Here's the podcast version.
      tldr; the evidence is not clear cut, Brits say e-cigarettes are the saviour of humanity, USA kinda agrees, Canada and Australia say needs more evidence.
      This is an Australian site, I'm an Australian, this site should not promote things that are in a grey zone in Australia.

      • Speckled Jim on 29/05/2018 - 18:23

        Thank you Serrin.
        After nearly 30 years of daily smoking, this has been a dramatic improvement. I had early stage PCD and shortness of breath when exercising in the last few years of smoking (2013-2016). Both these symptoms have cleared.

        Where combustible smoking is concerned, the nicotine isn't the harmful bogeyman the Government, Cancer Council and other anti-smoking lobbies would have the public believe. It is the carbon monoxide along with hundreds of chemicals in cigarettes that do the damage. The nicotine is the "treat" component. Shame the delivery method is so damaging.

        The tobacco industry saw the writing on the wall, and have invested heavily in (predominantly) disposable e-cigs, thus preserving an income stream. They should also look at the rebuildable segment, as batteries, coils, tanks and e-juice are needed at various times.

        In one sense, I'm happy with the status-quo. Should our authorities further approve these products, it will mean price increases. I'm quite happy spending just 5% of what cigs cost to vape.

        • serrin on 01/06/2018 - 10:24

          While there is large volume of evidence to suggest that electric nicotine vaporising devices are less dangerous than cigarettes, we shouldn't conflate "less dangerous" with "completely safe". Nicotine itself is harmful, it's not a government conspiracy, it's the truth.
          While some people may not find it feasible to quit nicotine use long term, if you want to optimise your health, quitting e-cigarettes should be the long term goal. If you're not keen for that, that's fine, it is less dangerous, but not completely safe.
          In terms of the tobacco industry getting into the electric nicotine vaporising device field, this is a bad thing. Granted the link here is not as strong as the one presented previously, e-cigarettes are likely a gateway for actual cigarettes (unlike marijuana being a gateway for injecting drugs, which is probably not a thing). Ostensibly they say this is to find alternative revenue streams, but they could invest in Google or Apple if they wanted more solid revenue streams. They are likely trying to leverage their investment in electric nicotine vaporising device to get new cigarette smokers. Like I said before though, this is going out a bit on a limb though. TBH, my preference would be for electric nicotine vaporising devices to be regulated like any other pharmaceutical, at least schedule 3 (i.e. over the counter, from a pharmacist, not just from Woolies/Coles/tobacco store). While this presents a barrier to entry, I think it would do good for people addicted to nicotine to stop visiting places that sell tobacco.
          On the above statement, in case people think I'm being biased, I'm not a pharmacist, not here to bandy my professional qualifications on a public forum.

        • Speckled Jim on 01/06/2018 - 12:10

          But from the linked PubMed report for that particular study, neither I or the dozens of people I know who are using the same strategy suffer from any of those symptoms. More vivid dreams, no doubt due to deeper and better sleep quality? Yes, but certainly not "abnormal dreams" as reported.

          And I find this a bizarre statement (my emphasis):

          Healthcare professionals should closely monitor smokers trying to quit nicotine use for the misuse of nicotine replacement therapy.

          No [ex]smoker I know personally (or online) wants to quit nicotine. They want to quit smoking with the assistance of a clean nicotine replacement that closely mimics the delivery efficiency and familiar hand-to-mouth behaviour.

          The US FDA was found to be running protection for big tobacco in 2016, and any number of studies produced by or for them should be viewed accordingly. Once US tobacco companies started investing heavily in e-cigs, the FDA backed off the proposed regulation framework (their Deeming Regulations).
          The final version of which includes this clanger:
          "We also noted that some individuals report using e-cigarettes to successfully quit smoking, but we expressed concerns about dual use of e-cigarettes and combusted tobacco products and the possibility that flavored e-liquids are leading children to initiate tobacco use with e-cigarettes."

          So they're saying that use of such products should be mutually exclusive? If I use e-cigs, I must not smoke traditional cigs? If they're both available, what's it to them? Then they squeeze in the "think of the children" bullshit relating food flavourings to their appeal…
          Worst case? Even if proven that kids experiment with e-cigs, count yourself lucky that it's not analogue cigs. We'll forget the parenting and educational issues, because they're too hard. We'll instead demonise the one innovation that is predicted to save many millions of lives.

          The only way nicotine will harm is if you mishandle it as a pure liquid, in which case you'll feel nauseous and should wash your hands. Drinking pure nicotine is potentially deadly, so don't do it. Just as you wouldn't drink petrol?

          Ultimately, this is a high-stakes issue. Revenue is being lost, as is the control of what poisons us. Authorities don't like that. They want the money, control and a perpetually broken health system with a steady death rate. Call me cynical, but I've lived long enough and seen enough from both sides to think any differently.

        • serrin on 01/06/2018 - 20:04

          @Speckled Jim: You obviously didn't read the links. There's a website called sci-hub if you want to get past journal paywalls. Here's an excerpt from the DTB article:

          Nicotine is a sympathomimetic drug that releases catecholamines, increases heart rate and cardiac contractility, constricts cutaneous and coronary blood vessels, transiently increases blood pressure, reduces sensitivity to insulin, may aggravate or precipitate diabetes, and may contribute to endothelial dysfunction.

          Yet another article

          Despite the relatively short time of availability for E-cigs and the large variation in contents, use and availability, several harmful effects are already documented, and many studies are ongoing. In general, these studies suggest potentially harmful effects from both the vapour and the nicotine which reach lungs, airways and the cardiovascular system. The effects include inflammatory changes, changes in the organ development and in mucous membrane function as well as risk for cancer development by affecting gene expression in different organs40. The harms caused by the vapour content may be related to both nicotine28 as well as substances other than the content of nicotine28,41. Exposure to nicotine per se has been shown in animal studies which suggest reduced fertility, increased risk for adiposities, hypertension, cardiovascular effects, gastric ulcer and gastric cancer, behavioural problems and reduced pulmonary development related to exposure to nicotine.

          No [ex]smoker I know personally (or online) wants to quit nicotine.

          That's your experience. I've talked to quite a few smokers and when the topic of nicotine replacement therapy (patches, gum or vaping) comes up, they reject it all and want to go cold turkey and 'go clean'. That's their prerogative and you have yours. I suspect you have a very biased sample and likewise I do too (if I come across a smoker in my work there's a decent chance smoking is related to why they're seeing me).

          I have yet to see you provide any evidence that nicotine is a completely safe compound. If you want to keep using it, great for you, but don't fool yourself, nicotine vapour is likely less toxic than combustible smoking, but it's still not completely safe.

          So they're saying that use of such products should be mutually exclusive? If I use e-cigs, I must not smoke traditional cigs?

          Yes because, what's the point of vaping then? Might as well keep smoking? The aim is to transition away from tobacco to something that (might) be safer. If you want to keep smoking tobacco, fine, but you're kidding yourself if you think you're making a meaningful change in your health with dual use. If you want to use an e-cigarette and smoke, fine, that's not the idea of it but you do you. You can smoke and use a nicotine patch. You can smoke with nicotine gum. The idea is to move away from tobacco but if you want to dual use that's your choice, but you're doing it wrong.

      • xev on 01/06/2018 - 15:11

        This is an Australian site, I'm an Australian, this site should not promote things that are in a grey zone in Australia.

        Vaping is not in a grey zone, it is legal in Australia, it's up to you if you add Nicotine to the liquid.

        I also used vaping to give up smoking after many unsuccessful attempts, no struggle, no withdrawals, no regrets.

        In my opinion, vaping products should be allowed on this site as they are legal, just not nicotine until the Government pulls its head out of its arse.

        As someone who vapes, I would find it valuable to know when such products are on sale.

        Edit: Bloody hell, it's been over four years, Vape shops are everywhere. This ban seems a bit outdated. Maybe its time to re-examine?

        • Speckled Jim on 01/06/2018 - 17:47

          Noooo see up there ^^ WA cracked down hard so eek!

          Not until a Committee of the Clueless sets down an acceptable, Government-sanctioned Personal Vaporisation Device. It will feature:
          * 2.5V peak, 7W max power
          * 1.5ml e-liquid tank
          * 2.7 Ohm single-wire coil
          * Bio-degradable drip tips (cos they're butt equivalents yo!)
          * 50ml flavourless liquid for $40 (inc GST). Equivalent to approximately 100 cigarettes! Only available on prescription.

          This is why I want them to keep their beaks out of it. We'll have a Kafka-esqe nightmare otherwise. Need proof?
          Look at the retarded, unnecessary, ill-informed, arbitrary limit for e-bikes — 250 Watts! You've got a blender or food processor with more power!

        • serrin on 01/06/2018 - 19:33

          Vaping is not in a grey zone, it is legal in Australia, it's up to you if you add Nicotine to the liquid.

          It's the nicotine which goes hand in hand is at the heart of my argument against allowing them on this site. Who vapes water/flavourings? A lot of people apparently on the internet, but let's not kid ourselves here, the majority of people who vape are using nicotine. The remainder are probably using THC, but that's an aside, that's as legal as the marijuana it gets extracted from (and is a completely separate discussion).

          If you want to live in a land free of regulation I suggest you move to the USA where the government doesn't regulate much and the corporations suggest laws for everybody. Where ads for fluticasone/salmeterol imply you get accordion like lungs after using them (you don't, ICS/LABAs prevent flares of COPD, not improve pulmonary lung function), aripiprazole is recommended for depression (da fuq!?) and the government only shows lip service to stop you from buying a gun and there's a mass shooting every fortnight. Don't want to live there? No? Well deal with the Australian Government. Or Canada/UK. As much as people bitch about government overreach, we, the United Kingdom nor Canada have yet to descended into an Orwellian 1984 nightmare.
          Don't forget, you can still smoke tobacco in Australia! Oh noes, the government want to control our lives but yet we can still buy cigarettes from the local corner store or the two major supermarket retailers!

        • Speckled Jim on 01/06/2018 - 21:12

          Once again Serrin, I mostly agree with you.

          However, the US? NO thanks. FDA introduced ham-fisted regulation vis-a-vis e-cigarettes and they reveal a lack of fundamental understanding of the issue. If kids being exposed to something many orders of magnitude safer than combustible tobacco is their concern?
          Age restricted sale — simples. We've had this in Australia for many years and it's a good policy!

          We've been eating GMO foods for decades according to some proponents here on OzB. Apparently as nobody has proven it's unsafe, it must therefore be safe. Long-term studies are irrelevant as there's a lot of money at stake <_<

          I'm not familiar with the compounds you mentioned, but I know that vegetable glycerin and Propylene Glycol (as a cosolvent for medications that require it) are both used with nebulisers. Both long recognised by FDA and other bodies as GRAS, and key constituents of e-liquid.

          So we're left with flavourings and nicotine. Potentially harmful flavourings (popcorn/butter) that made headlines a few years ago are a known quantity and no reputable vendor stocks liquids with those additives.

          Again, pure nicotine is toxic in large doses. It's a matter of ensuring you or the trusted supplier doesn't get it wrong. All toxicity being a question of dosage etc.

        • serrin on 02/06/2018 - 15:34

          @Speckled Jim: Let's agree to disagree.

  • timlaher on 27/05/2018 - 22:05

    Yes to allow.

    EDIT: Any chance of opening up this poll to votes again?

  • m0nkeycheese on 22/11/2018 - 21:58

    Still Banned? Not a smoker, but it helps people so why not? I laugh at the comments of people saying alcohol doesn't affect other people. Anyone watched an RBT show, or lost a loved one from drunk driving? Yeah.. alcohol doesn't affect anyone else /sarcasm

    @neil We need a new poll, its been 4 years, lots of things have changed

    • scotty on 23/11/2018 - 09:58

      Has the law changed regarding to advertising eCig related products? It was banned not because it's affecting other people, but it might affect OzBargain as the authority sees it as a form of advertisement for cigarette.

    • Baysew on 23/11/2018 - 11:20

      @neil We need a new poll, its been 4 years, lots of things have changed

      The last poll was in 2016 Should E-Cigarettes Be Reconsidered for Posting?

      Spoiler Alert: The votes were overwhelming in favour for the ban to remain.

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