NAS - technical help please

yk300 on 31/10/2013 - 20:23

Hey guys,

Just thought I'd ask for some advice with building a NAS for home usage. Like many of you here, I got a mixture of devices around the place

  1. I wanted to buy a branded NAS. They appear to be expensive for what they are but I guess it saves me the hassle of setting everything up. However, I dumped the idea of a branded NAS when I asked myself what would happen if the NAS break? Can the RAID be rebuilt afterwards on a different brand?

  2. I started looking at hp microserver G8. okay price and will give more flexibility. any view on the microserver G8? many think that it is an overkill for a NAS. is it better value for money to just get an earlier version or even just a desktop class machine?

  3. There is freeNas linux distribution which looks quite promising but again raises the question of how the RAID is implemented. I have more confidence that, with freeNas, it would be possible to do without much trouble. Am I wrong to think this? please feel free to share your experience with freeNas.

Computing

Comments

  • _Bruce_ on 31/10/2013 - 20:42

    I haven't used FreeNAS, but if it uses Linux software RAID then it will be very easy to recover/rebuild/extend the array (assuming Linux abilities). Not so useful if you aren't willing to learn this or know someone who does.

    • yk300 on 01/11/2013 - 02:29

      I had a play with volume manager before. For 4 HDDs, set-up looks fairly simple. If I may ask, what do you use?

      • _Bruce_ on 01/11/2013 - 07:29
        +2

        I use Linux software RAID with LVM.

        • yk300 on 01/11/2013 - 13:26

          My 2nd choice if FreeNAS fails me… quite keen to test and evaluate freeNAS first.

        • [Deactivated] on 03/11/2013 - 07:37

          I thought FreeNAS used ZFS was somehow different when it came to RAID? Can someone correct me?

        • scotty on 03/11/2013 - 07:52

          Yes sorry my bad. FreeNAS is based on FreeBSD + ZFS.

  • c64 on 31/10/2013 - 20:45
    +1

    i remember reading the comments for a nas unit featured in a recent deal and people were complaining that their drives were ok but the operating system got corrupted and effectively they lost all their data.

    • yk300 on 01/11/2013 - 02:33
      +1

      haha. that's a concern of mine with the branded NAS. kinda defies the point of having a NAS if they are losing their data still.

  • scotty on 31/10/2013 - 23:10
    +3

    I have a QNAP NAS (a dual-drive with Atom CPU). While it has a great customised software, the actual RAID implementation underneath is still managed by Linux md, i.e. software RAID no fancy hardware. I suspect most dedicated NAS boxes would be similar — Linux running on x86 or ARM with software RAID (or worse, proprietary OS). As of FreeNAS, it too just uses Linux md + some fancy interface.

    Therefore, it should be trivial to rebuild the RAID on a different box.

    • yk300 on 01/11/2013 - 02:35

      yeah. I would assume the linux community is smart enough to design the FreeNAS distribution properly. any possibility of flashing the QNAP NAS?

      • scotty on 01/11/2013 - 06:49

        I doubt it. Their OS upgrade are available on the web, but model specific for their NAS so I doubt you can just install on any desktop pc.

        • yk300 on 01/11/2013 - 13:26

          was thinking the opposite to attempt to increase its functionality

  • Davo1111 on 31/10/2013 - 23:22

    2 types of raid, software and hardware.

    Freenas will run software raid out of the box.

    To run hardware raid you'd need a compatible raid card (kinda like a usb hub, except sata).

    • yk300 on 01/11/2013 - 02:37

      yeps. I decided to go for software array, mostly for financial reasons. I do not need the advantages of hardware array. I've read somewhere on the web that even a micro server is an overkill for the task.

      • _Bruce_ on 01/11/2013 - 07:31

        Good pick. Most 'hardware' RAID controllers are actually fake raid anyway, and only cause problems.

        • Davo1111 on 01/11/2013 - 13:39

          fake?

        • _Bruce_ on 01/11/2013 - 14:41
          +3

          Actual hardware RAID controls each drive individually, handles error checks, parity, recovery, expansion, etc. It provides one 'drive' to the OS, which doesn't have to know any of these details.

          Pro:

          • Can be very fast
          • OS agnostic

          Con:

          • Crazy expensive
          • Need to have the same controller for recovery
          • Often limited functionality

          Software RAID is done entirely by the OS and a collection of drives.

          Pro:

          • Very flexible (tons of features)
          • Recovery works in any system with the same OS
          • Zero extra cost

          Con:

          • Adds (small amount) to CPU load. In some cases marginally slower.

          Most RAID controlers for home users (or included on your motherboard) are neither of these and are often refered to as 'fakeRAID'. It looks like hardware raid, but it has a custom driver which does all the work in software.

          Pro:

          • Nothing

          Con:

          • Adds (small amount) to CPU load. In some cases much slower.
          • Need to have the same controller for recovery
          • Often limited functionality

          IE: Pointless, use software RAID. The exception is if you are stuck with Windows which for some reason has TERRIBLE software RAID, so fakeRAID might be a step up.

        • scotty on 01/11/2013 - 14:57
          +1

          One good thing about the software RAID is that it improves over-time (when the underlying operating system gets better), and these days the CPU utilisation is hardly noticeable (I'm talking about Linux md RAID 1/5/10 w/ or w/o LVM). However the hardware RAID manufacturers do have their secret sauce and proprietary technology in performance or extra functionality (battery-backed write cache, fast rebuild, hot swap not always works in software RAID, etc).

          For home based servers software RAID is more than enough.

        • yk300 on 01/11/2013 - 16:27

          that pretty much sums it up. that said, do you back up your OS? If so, any special software/mechanism? Ideally I would prefer to keep my storage and OS separate physically.

          I have seen /boot often on a RAID 1 setup. I have never dealt with a corrupted grub but it seems to be an overkill. thoughts?

        • scotty on 01/11/2013 - 16:33

          RAID is never a replacement for backup. For me I run nightly scheduled task to encrypt and then rsync the data to a storage VPS that I have overseas.

          As of /boot on RAID — I am not sure whether you can do that. You might want to put your bootable OS on a 4GB USB key so it's independent from your data drives.

        • _Bruce_ on 01/11/2013 - 16:44
          +1

          I have boot on a small partition on one of the RAID drives, and RAID the rest of the drive. Pretty sure you can boot straight to RAID, but I couldn't be bothered.

          The boot is not backed up - everything is pretty standard and I can recreate it in no time. I did sync it across to the equivalent space on one of the other drives at some point, just because why not?

          Usually if you have a 'corrupted grub' it is because the stage 1 boot loader isn't pointing to the right place for stage 2. In this case you just have to boot a recovery disc and run one command to fix grub.

          As for backup, I sync to amazon s3.

        • yk300 on 07/11/2013 - 15:28

          at the risk of going off-topic, I wanted a RAID to replace my backup, or rather to reduce the backup. I understand that RAID is not a replacement for backup but for home, I find that RAID is much preferred. In the past, I always have this problem of multiple backup images.

          I find it better to have one authoritative copy of my data than multiple backups. I also noticed that OSes, at least Mac OS, are handling the backups, thus allowing you to revert to past states of the OS and documents.

          Am I missing something crucial here? was also planning to selectively rsync my RAID to an external HDD.

        • _Bruce_ on 07/11/2013 - 15:59

          The problem with a single automated backup is mostly a user error one. You delete/overwrite a fail by mistake and your 'backup' system happily destroys the old data.

          If you are going to do this, use a system with history, but this requires a lot more space than otherwise needed.

          Of course data de-duplication helps this problem, but now we are talking about a quite advanced set up.

        • yk300 on 07/11/2013 - 17:06

          Of course data de-duplication helps this problem, but now we are talking about a quite advanced set up.

          You had my curiosity but now my attention. any pointers that you can give me on that? pretty sure will be an overkill for a home set-up but I am quite keen to learn this.

        • _Bruce_ on 07/11/2013 - 18:00
          +1

          Can start with Google. If you aren't keen on learning to be a sys admin, this direction is not for you.

        • yk300 on 07/11/2013 - 19:15

          I am a junior sys admin at the moment :) will be changing soon though.

  • MITM on 01/11/2013 - 11:12

    See this effort - http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/108013

    • yk300 on 01/11/2013 - 13:29

      I am not sure I am following… there is no mention of NAS or raid in that thread. MythTV is already on the cards, though I do not really watch TV.

      • MITM on 01/11/2013 - 13:33

        nvm

  • Idlebrain29 on 01/11/2013 - 14:36
    +1

    i have been using Synology os on my n36l using hybrid raid for past 4 months with no issues. i have even simulated hard drive failure and rebulit the raid. the guide is available http://xpenology.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17

    • mistergoodwin on 03/11/2013 - 00:40

      ooh did not know you could successfully get the synology os on any other hardware yet, that's the best part! Cheers for the link!

    • yk300 on 07/11/2013 - 15:17

      in your experience, synology OS > freeNAS?

  • p1 ama on 02/11/2013 - 09:32
    +1

    The G8 is good, but there's no point when the N54L is much cheaper. Given that the N54L is actually cheaper than many 4-bay NAS devices, I really don't see a point in going the NAS route.

    With the N54L, you have the option of running a full blown OS. I used to have an N40L with an LSI 4 port PCI-e RAID card. I managed to get it on clearance for $120 (absolute bargain given it was like $400), was an EOL/run-out model. RAID 5 with 4 x 2TB for a total of 6TB storage.

    The other route is to just go full blown server, which is what I have done now that I've retired my N40L (it's actually serving as a HTPC connected to a TV and it's really good for that job too, it's really versatile)!

    If you have a Core 2 Duo gen PC lying around, just add an 8 port LSI RAID card, usually around $250 or so on clearance from LSI and you've got a better NAS than any pre-built one.

    This is my current config:

    CPU: Intel Celeron G1610 $45
    Motherboard: AsRock B75M R2.0 $50
    RAM: 8GB Patriot $80
    Case: Nanoxia Deep Silence 1 Dark Black Case $159
    RAID Card: Some LSI one $250

    Can support up to 8 hard drives in that case, plus another 4 in the 5.25" bays. I've only got 4 x 2TB in there at the moment + an old 500GB drive that I'm using as a boot drive.

    You can probably go without the LSI RAID card, just pick a motherboard with heaps of SATA ports and use software RAID. Will end up just as cheap and offer a tonne of flexibility.

    • yk300 on 07/11/2013 - 15:19

      cheers for sharing your config. thinking of starting with the N54L because of space.

      Given that the N54L is actually cheaper than many 4-bay NAS devices, I really don't see a point in going the NAS route.

      Exactly my thought

  • [Deactivated] on 02/11/2013 - 10:53
    +2

    unRAID is another linux option you could try, which runs off a USB (technically in memory once booted), leaving all drives for data.

    Most people build their servers from hardware laying around and/or repurpose an old desktop when they start out.

    What is unRAID? http://lime-technology.com/unraid-server/

    How does unRAID work? http://lime-technology.com/technology/

    It's quite simple to setup, and use. Plus there is a large active community to help with any issues you have: http://lime-technology.com/forum/

    Note: Plus & Pro keys cost $.

    Worth checking out to see if it's what you're after or not.

    • yk300 on 07/11/2013 - 15:14

      thanks… will check this out. so many options out there.

  • isidore12 on 02/11/2013 - 13:03

    Netgear RND4000, about $280, works great and use normal HDD. The raid 5 is simple, has redundancy and totally transparent.

  • nikey2k27 on 02/11/2013 - 21:28

    i have a rnd4000. now i have freenas box i love it run it self never shut down work a treat. plus if computer fall apart. i just buy another one.

  • ulun-lpg on 03/11/2013 - 17:00

    Raspberry Pi for the WIN! it is cheap, easy to install and very very cheap to run (i believe it is only $2-$5 per year)

    http://www.howtogeek.com/139433/how-to-turn-a-raspberry-pi-i…

    • scotty on 03/11/2013 - 18:51
      +2

      It only does SATA via USB I think, which is slow. Now if you are raiding multiple drives through its USB interface - very slow. Not to mention that the network interface seems to have problem saturating even 100Mbps. I probably won't use it to build a NAS.

    • _Bruce_ on 04/11/2013 - 08:11
      +1

      Same USB2 controller for all drives and Ethernet. Perhaps OK if you are really patient.

    • yk300 on 07/11/2013 - 15:16

      I looked into Raspberry Pi in the past. Not something for me I am afraid. maybe decent to connect to the TV but not something I would like for a NAS.

      I'm still keeping an eye on Raspberry Pi though. I reckon it might be a good machine in the future.

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