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why is kogan being banned?
Thanks.
Kogan is banned now?
PissLUR on 16/04/2013 - 15:09
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It has probably slipped through the cracks of Ozbargain.
For what?- Online Shop, Mobile, Unicorns??
You need more description because Ozbargainers are not psychics.(oops- thanks tanoshiiki!)(Admin please delete my first comment plz:-)
No don't, it was funny
If you tried to post a Kogan deal (one with kogan.com) we actually tell you the reason. The reason is also shown on the store's deal page here.
We have detected sockpuppeting from Kogan last week hence they were temporary banned. We apply that to all stores that violate our rules. Please do not try to circumvent the ban to post deals.
they sockpuppeted their own $1 blu-ray website error?
How long is the ban?
edit Found it on the their OzB page, 1 week.
They sockpuppeted their own 'website error'? That's one of the most bizzare things I've seen on Ozbargain.
Sockpuppeting should be a death sentence aka a permanent ban on OzBargain.
I wondered about that with a few of their posters recently.
Sockpuppeting should be a death sentence aka a permanent ban on OzBargain.
There wouldn't be many stores left. ;)
The majority of the time sockpuppeting occurs, stores come and have a discussion in the TWAM forum. They figure out what they did wrong, review our guidelines, and implement a social media policy within their company. Most of the time this results in discussion within the company of what to post on OzBargain. They then post good deals (or at least put more thought into it). The majority of sockpuppeting occurs just once.
I'm sure there are many reasons but many think it's Facebook. Click like button, buy fake accounts, post fake comments. Facebook doesn't care.
I wondered about that with a few of their posters recently.
It needs to be made clear. It was 1 poster on 1 deal.
New Deal Idea - buy a 'double-what-you-should-pay' Kogan bluetooth hamburger speaker, get one Ruslan Kogan Sockpuppet. Both lovingly handcrafted in China.
I was really surprised by this…Bogan's a pretty big outfit now, I would have honestly thought that sockpuppeting OzB would be utterly pointless for them!
Wow, just wow!!! :o
Sometimes it's also difficult for large company to police their own employees, as some feel 'obliged' to help out their employer. We had that happening to quite a few large retailers here, and we usually need to emphasis the importance for them to have strict social media policy on what their employees can/cannot do on the public forums.
Yes, good point. Hopefully one of those well-meaning overzealous employees wasn't named Ruslan Somethingorother! ;)
Just curious, what are the chances that the verdict of sockpuppeting is actually wrong?
I'm assuming these accounts were coming from the same IP range, on the same network as the Kogan accounts. So regardless of whether it was requested by the Kogan company or not they still should've ticked the "I am associated" box. Chances of them NOT being Kogan affiliated (eg employees) if they're on the same network - basically zero (especially if it's more than one account, repeated behaviour).
what are the chances that the verdict of sockpuppeting is actually wrong?
We only act if we are sure there is sockpuppeting. We also give every user, no matter what the offense a chance to talk with us via Talk with a Moderator.
I'm assuming these accounts were coming from the same IP range
IP addresses is one of many things we use in investigations. There are a multitude of other things to cross reference information.
Suck it kogan.. Feel the wrath of OzBargain
I'm quite sure that any OzBargainers who signed up for - and are still waiting for - their Agora smartphone to turn up, are feeling particularly wrathful.
Really?
Again?I'm surpriosed I haven't read that somewhere..
Methinks Kogan is paying to keep that news off Gizmodo!Kogan loves the drawn out pre-sale like none other. Nothing like earning interest on other people's hard-earned dosh.
Umm excuse my ignorance but what is sockpuppeting?
Looking at the details, that's Fraud. Sockpuppeters should be permanently banned where people create multiple accounts and like their own stuff. But i guess not declaring youself as an employee is not a big deal as sometimes employees do mistakes also. One week good for that. Reminds me of STAY IN JAIL in monopoly :)
Great question. Vote for most illuminating question of the day; I am another who was left in the dark with this term. Well done!
Now I understand why Kogan deals were getting higher than usual +ve votes.
Bought a TV from them before, will never buy from Kogan ever again. Full of problems and the so called 120Hz support isn't there. The TV cannot even do 60Hz properly and the HDMI Auto mode is a mess.
+1 to ban Kogan for at least 1 week.
This, of course, is the other kind of sockpuppeting - approved of by OzBargain mods, and Sam Kekovich: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N445qz-Uepo
The votes were real. It was someone posting a Kogan deal without declaring their relationship with the company (e.g. employee). If any fake votes are found, the user is generally banned and the vote revoked if not the deal removed.
We have moderation guidelines in effect for ban times which is applied across the board and is heavier if it happens more than once. The problem occurs when a popular company is banned. We need to balance the needs of OzBargainers with keeping a transparent and honest voting system.
So in laymen's terms sockpuppeting is:
posting a deal posing as a customer/normal person when you have some relationship with the company (employee, friend, family etc.)
posting a comment….
Artificial voting is similar.
Someone with a relationship to the company votes for a deal.
Unfortunately, sockpuppeting is more common in smaller companies despite numerous warnings/checkboxes throughout the site.
Probably the same scum who wrote their Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kogan_TechnologiesIt read like an ad for Kogan because a PR company wrote it. Complete with more references than a PhD. thesis. I'm surprised they didn't add prices too. 14.202.132.63 (talk) 10:54, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Why does this page read like an ad for Kogan? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.0.159.16 (talk) 06:23, 29 September 2011 (UTC)i've trimmed the POV. even the controversies section paints Kogan in a positive light. multiple references are direct from Kogan's website so hardly independent. LibStar (talk) 07:01, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Seems neutral now. The links to Kogan are just links to external articles hosted on their site - but not all positive. (202.60.90.22 (talk) 00:39, 22 May 2012 (UTC))POV yes, advert yes. There's multiple serious concerns with this article, including the POV which I've tagged. Is there is an editor who has a WP:COI here? please can you disclose that as per that guideline. Widefox (talk) 11:21, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps it is because Kogan is my fathers company. I have 4 Kogan TVs (wall-mounted) and they are great at an awesome price. Cheers Subi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Subi (talk • contribs) 07:03, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
Blueskymorning has made a large edit on 16 JAN 2013 which is pro Kogan. This edit has deleted numerous sources which reference non pro Kogan view points. I have just re-added a reference to a Federal Government Media release which was deleted by the aformentioned user during the bulk edit in question. Please review such a large edit and take action accordingly. Thankyou. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.210.64.93 (talk) 16:31, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
This is why OzBargain is so popular and respected.
Congrats to the Mods and Scotty for first of all catching this. Second, not overreacting and giving a life ban or something equally harsh to Kogan. Third, for being active in this thread and explaining exactly what is going on. Very refreshing in this day and age.
It would be so easy for OzBargain to sell-out and only care about making money. It is very obvious the quality and integrity in this site is always put first. It is why I visit the site several times a day! Often imitated, never bettered.
A one week ban is being very generous to Kogan. I suspect it's because their deals are generally quite popular here and therefore attract many hits to the OzBargain website.
OzBargain is being run purely like a business nowadays. Eg.: Administrators of OzBargain maintained the publication of the highly popular 18c discount fuel deal even after knowing the coupon was dodgy (confirmed in comments). They will only move to unpublish if they receive a take down notice.
Back to Kogan.
Neil wrote:
…The majority of sockpuppeting occurs just once.
We have moderation guidelines in effect for ban times which is applied across the board and is heavier if it happens more than once…
Scotty wrote:
http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/22721#comment-163979
On OzBargain they have been banned twice if I record correctly due to sockpuppeting, and we had same issue with its sister company Kogan. I have never bought their products, but I would be hesitant to buy from them judging from the way they/their staffs doing sockpuppeting/astroturfing here.Note that Kogan and MilanDirect were founded by the same person.
How come Kogan has received such a light penalty when they have sockpuppeted before?
OzBargain is being run purely like a business nowadays. Eg.: Administrators of OzBargain maintained the publication of the highly popular 18c discount fuel deal even after knowing the coupon was dodgy (confirmed in comments). They will only move to unpublish if they receive a take down notice.
Come on camelgrass by that logic almost every other deal with a special coupon code on ozbargain is dodgy. As these coupon codes were originally meant for a select group of subscribers, or existing customers.
For example
This AMEX deal that you posted, originally intended only for amex customers.OZbargain exists so everyone can get into the special deals and customers get information, and break the model for companies that price discriminate.
Don't get me wrong , I love the fact that you shared the deal, but imho the coles deal is no more or less dodgy than pretty much any other deal on this site.
Where is the evidence this deal was "dodgy"? There seems to be a lot of hysteria, opinion and unsubstantiated claims of impropriety and "people losing their jobs over this" etc. Perhaps they don't care, and it is all written off as promotions and advertising, so it is actually regarded as good for them.
I think that was a 100% legal deal, coles could have easily turned it off.
my comment about that deal.dealman wrote:
…coles could have easily turned it off.
How do you know that? Unless you are software engineer administering the Australia-wide Coles fuel discount coupon system, then you wouldn't know how easy or not-so-easy it would be to fix such a bug.
http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/99520#comment-1332990
…just about every other coupon code/ Voucher / Secret code published on the site is not originally intended for the general public.
For exp the Dominos deal where different coupon codes were emailed to different people at different prices……Come on camelgrass by that logic almost every other deal with a special coupon code on ozbargain is dodgy. As these coupon codes were originally meant for a select group of subscribers, or existing customers.
For example
This AMEX deal that you posted, originally intended only for amex customers…I understand where you are coming from and partially agree with you but there is one major difference.
Companies such as Dominos and BookDepository know, want and expect that their so-called exclusive discount codes will be shared with family and friends and also virally on websites such as OzBargain and RetailMeNot. That is part of their marketing strategy and they have been doing so for years.
I have never seen or known Coles to use their fuel discount vouchers as a marketing strategy in this way.
…coles could have easily turned it off.
How do you know that? Unless you are software engineer administering the Australia-wide Coles fuel discount coupon system, then you wouldn't know how easy or not-so-easy it would be to fix such a bug.
Seriously? We're talking about a company that can communicate with its stores and successfully change the price of fuel in milliseconds, so why can't they cope with invalidating a code so their scanning system wouldn't process it?
And I've had cashiers tell me all sorts of crap that apparently had come from management or head office. That doesn't make it true, and those comments are hardly proof. I recall in the Woolworths Airwick Candle deal, they were able to stop the deal when they were getting hammered. I was told by the checkout supervisor that it is because there were too many vouchers being redeemed, and that management had told them to stop accepting them because some people were coming in with photocopied fakes. But I was OK because I had a colour laser printed one!!?!?! and successfully redeemed my coupon.
While I'm not defending anyone abusing a deal or stooping to outright fraud, I'm not shedding a tear for a multi-billion dollar company having to pay out on a promotional instrument that they have budgeted for, and never come close to fully spending. Keep in mind this discount comes from the markup factored into the price of normal goods we buy especially to fund these %-off deals.
Seriously?
Yes.
Regarding the Woolworths Airwick Candle deal; from the time it was first posted on OzBargain to the time the barcode didn't work, approx. 2 days had passed (check the comments in your link for verification).
The Coles discount fuel coupon deal was posted approx. 4pm on the day of expiry. By the time head office probably worked out what was going on it wouldn't have given them much time to react (by cancelling the barcode and/or notifying service stations nationwide); also considering it was the end of the working day.
So, I guess checkout supervisors at Woolies are all honest while cashiers and supervisors at Coles Express are exactly the opposite right?—including quite a number of them quoted in the comments in the discount fuel deal.
Keep in mind this discount comes from the markup factored into the price of normal goods we buy especially to fund these %-off deals.
The operative word being "buy". Nobody bought anything in this case.
We'll never know the true story behind all of this. It's just very odd that after all these years suddenly there's a generic fuel discount coupon out there.
If I were to believe the conspiracy theories that the coupon was "leaked", then I point the finger to the OP. It's always the "neighbour", isn't it?!?!… hehe…
So, I guess checkout supervisors at Woolies are all honest while cashiers and supervisors at Coles Express are exactly the opposite right?—including quite a number of them quoted in the comments in the discount fuel deal.
My comment has nothing to do with honesty or dishonesty. It was an indication that the disparate reasons given by various checkout staff, supervisors and managers are hardly proof of the actual situation. Comments on an internet forum are NOT evidence, they are opinion and generally hearsay.
The operative word being "buy". Nobody bought anything in this case
People bought fuel. I'm sure they didn't lose a cent for what they sold it for. They just didn't make as much profit.
Anyone who buys groceries from Coles is probably paying 5% on top of the price to fund these deals. Great if you spend $30 and get a voucher, then buy 150 litres of fuel. You recoup your hidden surcharge. But what about when I only spend $25, I still pay the surcharge and get nothing. Or if I spend $200, I get the same reward as spending $30. But they are still charging on everything and keeping the surcharge. That is what we are buying.
I'm sure most barcodes of this type are single-use. Some are generic, especially ones published in newspapers and magazines. It wouldn't be hard to use the right one. If they made a generic code, they obviously intended it to be used by multiple people. Whether that was the case here is unknown.
Arguing back and forth is pointless, the fact is we don't know what was going on. I was more annoyed by the opinions and "what-ifs" when there was zero evidence of anything. I think we have hijacked the Kogan thread long enough.
Okay if that's how you feel I'll consider all of your comments hitherto pure opinion and hearsay, as you say. Nothing substantive here, time to move on.
Where is the evidence this deal was "dodgy"? There seems to be a lot of hysteria, opinion and unsubstantiated claims of impropriety and "people losing their jobs over this" etc. Perhaps they don't care, and it is all written off as promotions and advertising, so it is actually regarded as good for them.
I was never caught up in the hysteria that people would lose their jobs.
By using common sense deduction skills I believe it was a dodgy coupon:
In the comments section of the deal there were around a dozen people who said the cashier didn't except the coupon; all from different service stations. Comments from the cashiers included things like the coupon is "dodgy", "fake", "a fraud", etc and that management had told them so and not to accept the voucher. These are people that actually work for Coles Express. Who knows how many other untold dozens of Coles Express service stations with proper knowledge acted in the same manner? The service stations that did accept the vouchers probably didn't have access to proper information or couldn't be bothered to check with head office once they started receiving all these identical coupons. They're were probably thinking, "if it scans all must be okay, right?." In any case, they're not the ones out of pocket for the discount. It's normally the store that the coupon comes from that pays.
Do you honestly believe that Coles would purposefully release a generic coupon with such a large discount that could be used by anyone in Australia? As evidenced in the comments, there was considerable confusion caused in and around the Australia-wide Coles Express network. Some cashiers didn't accept it, some did, some had to call head office/management, many had to explain to their customers why they couldn't accept the voucher. Why would Coles knowingly want to cause confusion, doubt, hassle and inconvenience within their own Coles Express network, let alone amongst their thousands of customers?
This comment explains how a Coles discount fuel voucher is not generic:
http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/99520#comment-1335964
Companies such as Dominos and BookDepository know, want and expect that their so-called exclusive discount codes will be shared with family and friends and also virally on websites such as OzBargain and RetailMeNot. That is part of their marketing strategy and they have been doing so for years.
Hmmmm, now aren't you generalising and assuming this, you don't know that unless you are the guy creating the coupon. The companies assume that there might be some leakage of coupons but certainly if the intent was to make the coupons available to all they could just as well make them available directly on their sites but they don't do that.
Dominos for exp were trying different coupons at different prices for the same CB pizza to work out what price works best. So certainly the intent was to price discriminate and see what sticks. Ozbargain makes the information broadly available to consumers who traditionally had less information than the companies.
there were around a dozen people who said the cashier didn't except the coupon; all from different service stations
Happens all the time even on many other deals where the stores don't have any idea of the promotions run by the headoffice. Doean;t make the deal dodgy
Do you honestly believe that Coles would purposefully release a generic coupon with such a large discount that could be used by anyone in Australia?
Well they have done crazy stuff before, I don't want to go into their intent because its not for me to know and there is no way for anyone to know. If they didn't want to make the coupon available then they shouldn't have made the coupon reusable, too bad. I certainly don't feel bad for them.
Remember again that this is the same company that will suck the blood out of you if they could. http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/99520#comment-1332990
PS: I hate KOGAN / milan direct just as much as you do. http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/95076#comment-1270063 I've never bought anything from them, and hate the outright cheating which they attempt everytime. So I sympathise with you on hating Kogan, just don't blame ozbargain the mods and the commmunity , the mods are trying to strike a delicate balance and will be blamed either way.
Hmmmm, now aren't you generalising and assuming this, you don't know that unless you are the guy creating the coupon.
No, not at all. As I said they've been doing it for years. If they really cared they would be sending out unique codes.
But no, they usually send out generic codes that can be used by anyone, any number of times. This suggests that they don't care and count on the code being shared and going viral.
Happens all the time even on many other deals where the stores don't have any idea of the promotions run by the headoffice. Doean;t make the deal dodgy
Exactly the opposite. The stores that didn't accept the coupons were most likely the ones to have bothered to have checked with head office and be in the know. Check the comments, some cashiers said they had phoned management/head office and confirmed the coupons were invalid.
That would be just plain stupid to have one generic coupon floating around while every other one is unique. This is recipe for confusion, as did happen, not good for staff or customer.
I do agree. There was a lot of hue and cry on 16c coles deal by few members.
I did not get it myself as my tank was full, but as a coles car insurance customer, I am getting 8c (coles voucher)+8c (insurance voucher)= 16c discount most of the times and sometimes it is 12c + 8c = 20c discount. They are getting more customers for fuel based on coles supermarket sales or insurance customers.Coles and woolies make prices based on region and only motive is to get more profit. Coles declared in the previous quarter despite of heavy discounts on many items. So they wont die if they are giving discounts to handful of people. Their petrol prices are mostly higher than United petrol stations.
Also we noted in a previous Dan murphy's deal, that Menai store was having much cheaper prices to crack in customers from a local wine shop. Ultimately their motto is to get that shop closed and hike the prices accordingly. Thats what happened in my local coles after closing of a local veggies shop. they hiked the prices of veggies.
In Summary, banning a store temporarily will give them the idea that that should not do a dummy vote. COTD has been doing that in the past and now QQQ is quite disciplined in posting deals here. ( I still hate them.)
I suspect it's because their deals attract so many hits to the OzBargain website (therefore revenue).
Revenue has nothing to do with it. If you quoted the next sentence.
The problem occurs when a popular company is banned. We need to balance the needs of OzBargainers with keeping a transparent and honest voting system.
A one week ban is being very generous to Kogan.
It's not 1 week, it's 2 weeks.
OzBargain is being run purely like a business nowadays.
Complete bullshit.
Eg.: Administrators of OzBargain maintained the publication of the highly popular 18c discount fuel deal even after knowing the coupon was dodgy (confirmed in comments). They will only move to unpublish if they receive a take down notice.
Huh? So you want us to take down popular deals? We fight to keep as many good deals up as possible. We had no requests for take downs for that deal.
At the end of the day, it's about what OzBargainers want.
It's not 1 week, it's 2 weeks.
Okay, fair enough, that's more like it. Sorry, I don't know where I got the 1 week from (EDIT: Now I know, 1 or 2 previous comments mentioned a 1 week ban). Kogan are serial offenders. I'm sure I've seen first time offenders in the past banned for 2 weeks. But you have to "balance" the needs of OzBargainers, right?
At the end of the day, it's about what OzBargainers want.
I agree. My comment regarding the dodgy 18c discount fuel voucher was more of an expression of my disappointment in how OzBargainers acted in this case; that is, like a pack of hungry wolves. Admin facilitated this kind of behaviour in allowing a known dodgy voucher deal to remain published.
My observation (also from what you alude to about "balancing") is that the more popular companies and deals, which attract higher interest and more traffic to the OzBargain website, appear to be treated in a different manner to other companies and deals.
Just my observations. Forgive me if I am wrong.
@camelgrass — It was a two weeks ban, happened on 9 April. However this thread was only created on 16 April so it appears that Kogan was only banned for a week.
I also do not think your accusation is justified. "Kogan / MilanDirect was banned for sockpuppeting before" && "Kogan is only banned for two weeks this time" —> "Therefore OzBargain must be only looking after its own business". While indeed we are now running as a business, you also need to see it from our point of view, especially how we are trying to achieve two conflicting goals.
We are certainly trying to walk on a fine line between doing what is fair (banning offending sites regardless of their popularity), or doing what the community wants (shortened ban or just store-rep ban on popular sites). We do what is fair because we believe deceptive "marketing" on the Internet is wrong. However at the same time we are running a website for the bargain hunting community here who want to share good bargains. Our motto has always been for sharing and discussing the best bargains in Australia. We actually already had discussions on this topic amongst the moderators (who don't always agree on everything), although I can't say that we have reached a definite conclusion either.
Our community might also be divided. Some simply don't care. Some really don't want to see popular sites banned — we always have people trying to circumvent bans by posting on an alternate domain. At least two people have tried it when Kogan was banned this time. Then we have people who really want Kogan punished because of possible bad past experiences.
Anyway. Thanks for your concern. It's not an easy task to solve, and we are happy to take suggestions from the community. We have also been slowly rolling out "features" to help merchants to reduce their chances of infringing the rules. For example showing warnings if we suspect that it might be sockpuppeting, and people need to explicitly confirm to proceed. Lock certain IP to specific company so posted deals will always be declared, etc.
For the record I think you do a great job of keeping things balanced and considering the important issues in these decisions. Keep up the great work.
I agree.
With all due respct camelgrass, as dealman suggested above your Amex deal was also meant to be for AMEX customers. You can also call that 'Dodgy', After posting that deal, you also did the same thing as was for coles.
So take it easy and enjoy the deals…
I understand your point of view and see where you're coming from.
As I explained in my comment above there is a significant difference between the two scenarios. If BookDepository really wanted the discount code to be used only by AMEX customers then they would have sent out unique codes to each recipient; along with expiry date and how many times the code can be used.
But no, they send out a generic code that can be used by anyone, any number of times. This suggests they don't care and count on the code being shared and going viral.
haha my friend,
The coupon from coles was the same.
a generic code that can be used by anyone, any number of times
:-) Just that it was not available publicly until some do gooder put it on OzB
It was most likely a bug in their system. Dominos and Bookdepository have been doing generic codes for years.
Can you find me another time that Coles has generated a generic coupon?
They could have stopped it as well.
I could not use my used Petrol voucher again in Coles. It says invalid next time.
So for 16cents ones they were prepared to get more response than expected and wanted it to get leaked out to have spiked sales. I am sure they did not make a loss in that as well.
Selling 10k people 15 cent margin is better than selling 1k people with 30 cent margin.
That is the reason Coles declared profits even though they decreased prices of most of their items and offered more discounts on Petrol.
Thank you for this.
No point in dumping Kogan sales in here.
Camelgrass, community in here voye the coles deal, if you think it is a dodgy, do not use it, simply as that but let you know nothing wrong with the deals. Everyone happy with the deal excrpt you. I even sure coles owner happy with the deal too as for the last 8 hour or so the sales increase.
So pls keep this website based on community vote. If we think it is dodgy, let it be neg vote. Thats all from me. Bye ;) ( post and run)
better yet: if you dont like ozbargain nowadays, dont use it.
thats why i quit facebook - simple as that, no reason to be a **** ****.
its not like ozbargain's some sort of protein that you cant live without - more so if it IS for you, dont whine, deal with it.
saw a couple of deals being unpublished..
This deal is not published.
iPad Mini 16GB Black for $308 Shipped from Kogan (Banned site)