Staying in a crappy company?

Merapi on 25/11/2023 - 18:50
Last edited 26/11/2023 - 17:18

Have you ever worked for a crappy company, stayed and eventually they got better?

I've been wanting to leave my job for the past few months because the upper management is bad, you name it, culture problems, not so great senior leaders, no strategic direction, potentially financial issues, board of directors under CEO's thumb, good people leaving/or made redundant, budget issues, it's quite messy with sub par business practices (I feel like my business/communication skills have gone down). My immediate team is not bad, but everyone also a bit confused with the direction of the company, so morale is kinda low.

I was set on leaving and actively in the middle of job applications but recently got promoted with new pay/job title. Honestly, even with the new promotion, it only kept me happy for like an hour or two and then I feel a bit depressed again with the prospects of me doing extra (confusing - no direction work).

I guess I've kinda answered my own question and I know I won't be happy staying here.

Just wondering if any of you stuck it out in a bad company and did it get better? or did it get worse? or anything? Curious of other people's experiences.

Thanks!

ps: please be nice, I'm all anxious from the job application stuff atm.

Poll Options

  • 15
    Yes, I stayed and it got better eventually
  • 23
    Yes, I stayed and regretted it
  • 260
    No way, bad culture = bad management = time to go!
  • 1
    No, I left but regretted it (newly added poll)
Education & Work

Comments

  • barge-in hunter on 25/11/2023 - 18:54
    +11

    Major cultural changes take a long time - it sounds like you’re past the point of being part of that cultural change, so best to take the promotion and leave soon.

    Fwiw, this is how a lot of orgs with sub par cultures keep reasonably talented people. “Last person standing”

    • Merapi on 25/11/2023 - 19:02

      Thank you. Very practical advice :)

    • HeWhoKnows on 26/11/2023 - 07:46

      These are all OPs complaints.
      Other employees may have a different view
      Certainly the company is doing rather well regardless.

      Id suggest OP moves on if not happy there.
      Definitely if not just for better pay.

      BUT BUT BUT
      OP may find the same issues elsewhere, unfortunately

    • CowFrogHorse on 27/11/2023 - 18:41

      Theres no such thing as culture.

      Work is work, its not my life or yours, my home life is none of their business and my time after work is MINE not theirs.

      Work is only one thing, work, nothing more and nothing less.

  • Muzeeb on 25/11/2023 - 18:54
    +18

    ps: please be nice,

    That leaves me out then. Your loss.

    • Merapi on 25/11/2023 - 19:03
      +2

      Thanks!

  • Ocker on 25/11/2023 - 19:15
    +9

    I had two golden rules in my working life (a) if the job stops being enjoyable and (b), you lose respect for your employer, then it is time to move on.
    After 34 years with the same employer both criteria were met and I resigned/retired when I was just 49. Have never looked back.
    My firm view is the same principles should apply regardless of your tenure of employment.

    • SnoozeAndLose on 25/11/2023 - 20:05
      +3

      You start working for the same employer from 15?

      • Muzeeb on 25/11/2023 - 20:47
        +4

        It's not unusual. I've got 30 years of service and I'm in my 40's.

        • Kangal on 27/11/2023 - 18:14

          Well some of us do WFH*

          (work from Hyperbolic Time Chamber)

      • Ocker on 26/11/2023 - 18:14
        +2

        Yep, 15 years and 3 months old

    • iCandy on 26/11/2023 - 09:02
      +4

      I worked for lawyers. (b) would have gotten me every time.

  • dtc on 25/11/2023 - 19:21
    +10

    The ideal job is one that pays well, gives you interesting work and you aren’t surrounded by assholes.

    You can - within reason - survive if the first two are not quite where you want them. However your job is failing on the second point and not sure there is anything you can do about it . More importantly your job is full of assholes which means you will (and should) hate your job and there is nothing you can do to fix it

    There is not really any such thing as ‘corporate culture’. It’s manager culture and if you aren’t going to get new managers then your work life will not improve. Even if one leaves they may well replace with a clone of themselves anyway.

    Leave unless there is no alternative.

    • Merapi on 25/11/2023 - 20:28

      Thank you, I'll keep those 3 criterias in mind for future references!

  • Hardlyworkin on 25/11/2023 - 19:22
    +14

    Leave Optus.

  • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2023 - 19:59
    +4

    Leave. Unless the money is at least 5x the norm, culture and work/life balance are far more important. You'll burn out or be so depressed by the time any culture change actually is visible, and it may never happy because all the wiser ones will jump ship first and before you.

  • Dollar General on 25/11/2023 - 20:05
    +7

    How many people really enjoy their job? Most of us just there for the money not the love of it

    • Trying2SaveABuck on 25/11/2023 - 21:25
      +6

      i read a study that around 80 percent of people dont love their job and they literally 'go to work' for the money i reckon it is probably closer to 97 percent

      unless you're a rock-star, sportstar, porn-star, destination travel reporter, video game streamer/youtuber or some other neich high paying, fun job i doubt there are many people who wake up and say 'Yes i going to work'…. stacking shelves, cleaning toilets, changing bed pans, lay bricks etc….

      i 'dont hate my job' but i dont love it - to say i love doing something means you would do it almost every day for free - ie i love spending time with my kids, i love playing certain sports, going to the gym, watching movies, playing video games etc

      i wouldnt not do my job for 'free'

      • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 26/11/2023 - 06:25
        +6

        It will be somewhere in the middle but certainly not 80-90% hating their jobs. People find purpose, worthiness, enjoyment, challenge and reward in different ways.

        It's not strictly occupation based either. Finding a match for the above is important. I know a house cleaner that loves their job. They can set their own hours, do not have to interact with anyone, it's physical, no overtime or mental drain.

        I also know a YouTuber and they hate the work and content creation process now. They're burnt out but won't quit as they believe they're too invested now. People envy their job, when yet secretly they want to delete their channel and socials forever.

        • WhyAmICommenting on 27/11/2023 - 16:56
          +1

          How successful are they at YouTube roughly speaking?

  • Drakesy on 25/11/2023 - 20:26
    +1

    vote with ya feet,
    You spend just under a third of your life at work, might as well enjoy it.

    • CowFrogHorse on 27/11/2023 - 18:44

      Only a third ?

      A work day is 8 hours +1 for lunch and probably 2 for commuting. Getting ready for work also costs time so thats another hour.

      Out of 24 hours thats closer to 11 hours spent for work leaving little for anything else.

  • try2bhelpful on 25/11/2023 - 20:38
    +2

    Leaving is probably a good idea but how do you know the company you go to are going to be any better? It is always the problem with leaving one job to go to another. Perhaps think about everything that drives you nuts in this organisation and try to do some research on the new company. Also try to work out searching questions for the interview that don’t blow your chances.

    • Merapi on 25/11/2023 - 21:57

      yes, definitely, there is no point going from one bad place to another bad place.

      There are some key takeaways like, look into the profitability of the company, look into glassdoor/seek reviews, ask the recruiter if they know the business intimately and ask for what they think of it, ask some questions during the interview (eg, what's the culture like, how important is this team to the business? what is the objectives etc).

      Even the annual report sometimes reveals a lot about the company. A robust company will have more clarity over their strategic goals, their achievements, what's the threat to the business, information about staffing, etc.

      But yeh, there is no guarantee it would be greener, I guess, everything we choose in life is a risk, hopefully a calculated one.

    • Zondor on 27/11/2023 - 10:04

      Ask questions to read between the lines. For me in the IT industry, I ask how do they calculate their incoming tickets vs helpdesk staff ratio. If they talk about "Feel" or when KPI's slip instead of X staff per X tickets, then I decline.

      • WhyAmICommenting on 27/11/2023 - 16:57

        Do you work in helpdesk or you think that’s just a good guide to how they operate in general?

        • Zondor on 27/11/2023 - 21:00
          +1

          Ex Team Leader for an outsourced IT provider. Went over to project delivery and am now running my own IT Consulting business.

      • CowFrogHorse on 27/11/2023 - 18:45

        KPI, your job sound like typical American bullshit. Culture, everything is a row in an excel spreadsheet, everyone admires the ceo..

        • Zondor on 27/11/2023 - 21:02
          +1

          KPI's aren't necessarily evil, they need to be actually achievable based on work type and work load. I set them as I need to know when to hire new staff to maintain service level and not burn out my team. A KPI used correctly is used to maintain quality of work for both the client and the employees.

          • CowFrogHorse on 28/11/2023 - 07:46

            @Zondor: The concept of KPIs are mostly stupid and gamed to such a large extent they are worthless. Not claiming they are always evil, im just saying the overall atmosphere they create or contribute towards is a game of stupidity where people are gaming them in numerous ways.

            Zondor: I set them as I need to know when to hire new staff to maintain service level and not burn out my team

            cow: How exactly do. you weigh the actual effort for each activity ?

            How do you stop fake or gaming ?

            Why not just look at the actual work instead of fake lists of items and scores etc ?

            Look at the Optus blowup the other week, according to numbers, the CEO is responsible, according to bonus time, only the ceo gets a bonus… This is what KPI and that culture is about, fake attribution simply because the rules of how the numbers are judged and allocated is fake from top to bottom.

            Did the leadership really do any work in the end at Optus ? Of course not, the only work they did was pretend they are leadership, pretend they are respobsible, thats what KPIs actually mean in practice.

            • Zondor on 28/11/2023 - 11:36

              @CowFrogHorse: I think you're reading into things too much and relating them to other aspects of organization. A KPI is simply a tool to achieve an objective, just like a tape measure.

              You can't claim a tape measure is evil because they use them to fabricate war machines that kill people 

  • Trying2SaveABuck on 25/11/2023 - 21:09
    +1

    assuming you dont need the money or can find a similar or better position elsewhere i'd bail

  • Some Human on 25/11/2023 - 21:40
    +4

    Yep, every now and then I get pissed at some new change they make and consider leaving. Then by the time I've planned my exit strategy, I forget the reason why I wanted to leave / get used to the change and then I stay.

  • JIMB0 on 25/11/2023 - 22:17
    +8

    I worked for a company that turned bad with a change of management. As time went by it went from bad to worse. I stayed because it was high paying and close to home, plus you could get away with not doing much.

    In the end after many years, those of us who'd challenged the management were made redundant. The place then fell in a heap as most of the people who were left had no real talent other than kissing ass.

    I used all my sick leave and left with a huge redundancy payout. Now I just work casual when I feel like it and only for companies that treat me well.

  • Benoffie on 25/11/2023 - 23:33
    +6

    Fish rots from the head…

  • footscrayvic on 26/11/2023 - 09:15
    +3

    Never stay in a toxic workplace or with a toxic boss - a key life lesson. BUT, don't just leave without having a new job lined up - grin and bear it until you are ready. Lie through your teeth and grin like a fool if you have to just to get by until you are ready to leave.

    Think about all of the people that you have worked with in the past and contact those who might have good ideas about options for your next job. Sometimes they can give you good insights about yourself, or suggestions of new jobs coming up, or they may know of a job working with them. Sometimes these might be old bosses, or colleagues or subordinates.

    Good luck

    • bobbified on 26/11/2023 - 10:33

      Never stay in a toxic workplace or with a toxic boss

      What is a 'toxic' workplace? I know people who call their workplace that because they've been asked to return to the office a few days each week.

      • footscrayvic on 26/11/2023 - 12:25
        +2

        A place where the culture will cause ill health. Depression, anxiety etc. Any place where the expectations of the employer or boss are unreasonable or destructive of workers.

        • bobbified on 26/11/2023 - 12:55
          +1

          What that is can be very different to different people. I've seen people go from company to company saying that they left because the company has a toxic culture. In cases like that, it's pretty obvious the problem is probably not with the employers.

  • bobbified on 26/11/2023 - 10:40
    +1

    ..but recently got promoted with new pay/job title.

    Did you get promoted from a 'team member' role to a 'team manager' role or did you go from a 'team member' to a 'senior team member'?

    With your job search, are you looking for a role equivalent to this new promotion or are you looking based on your previous level? Depending on the type of promotion you got, it might be worthwhile staying in this job for a little longer so you can get some experience in your new role (that comes with a higher salary). That might open you up for more opportunities and more $$ when you go out into the market.

  • SlickMick on 26/11/2023 - 17:17

    Your poll left out left and regretted it. It depends on what would it require to fix your job. e.g. it's possible to find satisfaction working for a good team in a crappy company.
    I left a couple of good jobs because I had a dud boss, and both times they left shortly afterwards and I wish I had stuck it out.

    • Merapi on 26/11/2023 - 20:22

      Added an extra poll: No, I left but regretted it

      I guess it's hard to know though if your former bosses would leave shortly afterwards! I mean they could have stayed longer and make your life super miserable. But I guess the good thing is that you seem to not leave it to chances and proactively do something about it.

      Where I am, there are other indicators that the company is not going so well. I try not to go into details for privacy reasons. But yea it's a widespread issue that is negatively impacting our team too…I've seen good people lose hope or made redudant or 'silenced'

      • SlickMick on 26/11/2023 - 23:43

        Yeah but they were both really good jobs, probably the best two I ever had. I reckon you might be right - the first boss actually followed me to my new company! Maybe his career goal was to get under my skin!
        I actually tried to go back to the 2nd one… but wasn't quite the same role and didn't fall into place.

        You seem to be describing my latest company. I would undoubtedly leave if I had an option.

    • JIMB0 on 27/11/2023 - 11:01

      Where I worked the dud bosses stayed the longest. If we ever got a good boss they'd leave in frustration after seeing how disfunctional the upper management was.

  • SpicyStew on 26/11/2023 - 21:45

    start sending out your resume

  • rkdreddy on 26/11/2023 - 23:34
    +2

    Take a coin and assign 'quit' to, say, heads and 'stay' to tails. Toss the coin, and you know what you really want to do while it is mid-air.

  • cauilfield on 27/11/2023 - 08:04
    +1

    search for a new job while being cool as cucumber wearing a fake smile. Don't waste your life.

  • WastedWombat on 27/11/2023 - 09:48

    I would definitely leave.

    I was in a fun job for a while - loved my team and colleagues and loved what I did. Career progression was terrible, cracks in management started showing (we never saw the boss + he was an arsehat). Left after complaining and trying to fight for better pay and wellbeing with colleagues - got a way better paying job and am much happier at the new gig.

    It's hard to leave a toxic environment especially if you have friends that work there, it was really hard for me - it feels like you're abandoning them, but the truth is the toxic workplace/management will exist and will continue to exist regardless if you work there or not.

    • wuds on 27/11/2023 - 11:19
      +1

      Very true.. hard to leave when you have a great team..

  • Polaremail on 27/11/2023 - 10:42

    Just leave, there are always somewhere better for you. If you willing to working, there are always work.

  • Name on 27/11/2023 - 10:56
    +1

    Just in response to your poll. It's not always bad management. I left a company that had extremely bad culture, very back stabby, rude and a few very selfish people. My boss there left, I did around the same time (to different companies), a few years later I joined him at another company where he was manager for a year and it was completely different. Culture there was fantastic.

  • wuds on 27/11/2023 - 11:18

    I've pretty much had a similar scenario.

    I've had a fantastic manager and a great team, but the manager left leaving us alone. The new manager was a pain and tried to micro-manage everyone even though there were team leaders (Stupid things like checking what time we came to the office and left, checking if we were green all the time when we worked from home, and not allowing work from home most of the time, Didn't allow us to charge for L&D or overhead without approval etc.). The leadership was very toxic and a few people decided to leave.

    The team was still great; we were like a family and looked after everyone (most of us :P).

    I was waiting for a payrise but didn't see it coming, so I decided to leave. Ironically, they matched the offer and gave me a promotion, but i still decided to leave.

    The new place was so different and had no team culture, so I only stayed there for 10 months. I still felt that i should have accepted the counter offer and stayed.

  • realaaa on 27/11/2023 - 12:05

    well it depends !

    as in - you have been there for a while, and they got worse, due to someone leaving?

    or you just came in - and saw that it's a struggle street?

    are they in the middle of some re-org or similar? in this case there might be some improvement, re-orgs are tough !

    if they are indeed a company which was run like this for ages, then I guess it is not going to change, unless you or your team change it ! so then the decision is obvious

  • Homr on 27/11/2023 - 12:40

    It depends on your pay.

    If you get paid well, then I would suck it up and stay

    If you're getting paid under market, then bail

  • qwijibo on 27/11/2023 - 14:16

    Crappy companies never get better. Always go where you're treated best (pay, team, work).

  • participant123xyz on 27/11/2023 - 14:28
    +1

    I have the following philosophy, if:

    (a) your boss isn't too bad to work for and;
    (b) you can pay mortgage

    then life's going ok. Sure, I work in the dull, white collar corporate world, but I don't go too hard and am able to switch off at the end of the day.

    Been here for a while and have looked for gig's elsewhere, but the risk of losing criteria (a) for an extra 20-30k gross is not a risk I'm not willing to take.

    • ESEMCE on 27/11/2023 - 15:17

      ^Agreed
      In my case a, new boss was parachuted in by the new GM. They kept my old boss on to train her up and then shuffled him sideways in the business after 2 months.
      Workload was more than doubled with no increase in headcount (we went from an AU/NZ only focus to a global focus). Morale went from being a high performing team, to the absolute toilet.

      I documented an extensive list of complaints in a performance review, but stayed on until I got my LSL (signing myself up for an additional 3 months of hell)
      Headcount was increased and it got marginally better to the point that I thought was happy, so I stayed on past getting LSL, then I (and 3 others) got made redundant during COVID (100% political, not performance, capability or tenure related).
      Once I learned who else was on the chopping block, I was actually relieved to be getting paid to leave, cause I knew it would be back to the bad old days if I was one of those remaining.
      I landed a job 4 weeks later on more pay, with no stress and the culture is 1000% better.
      So much so that I recently turned down a +15% offer on another role.

      I'm still friendly with my former colleagues and they've spent the last 3 years complaining to me about how shit work became. Only 2 of the 15 remain there today.

  • randomdude14 on 27/11/2023 - 16:33
    +2

    Glad you're seeking help, even in a forum like this. A few things from my experience:

    1. Better places exist - don't waste time worried in a hopeless place, there are always better places. Also, which means you'd never find perfect! Pick the things that are really important to you, not vanity indicators. If you keep looking for perfect, you'll have to keep moving.

    2. Reflect on what you experienced - ask others of their experience. I've seen junior staff go on criticizing corporate strategy etc, in reality they don't really have the capacity to grasp business strategy or such complex things at such early stage in their career. So they are just using all these allegations to show frustration with something else.

    3. Some people will say they love their job. Its usually the people who quit the minute they win the lottery. Being able to make peace with what you do (or enjoy it to some extent) is different from loving your job. While it is great to have career aspirations, remember it is just a job. Focus on more important things in life and know that jobs are means to an end.

    Over & out!

  • od810 on 27/11/2023 - 16:53

    I worked for a company and quit after two months. I didn't get along with the manager, no point of me staying and suffering. I quit on spot after we had an argument and felt very disrespected by him.

  • mrvaluepack on 27/11/2023 - 17:02
    +2

    Ive worked for 8 different companies. Let me tell you that the grass always seems greener on the other side. My advice is find a large ASX listed company and just stay with them. The larger the company the less work per person.

  • RefusdClassification on 27/11/2023 - 17:13
    -1

    No need to put up with a depression workplace. You should do what every OzBargainer is doing. Retire early and live off passive income streams. The Gold Coast is full of such people.

  • gtech on 27/11/2023 - 17:21
    +1

    As an employee you have 3 options
    1. Change yourself
    2. Change the company
    3. Change company

  • Imitation on 27/11/2023 - 17:57

    As soon as you have built resentment towards someone or the company that relationship is over.

  • djesr on 27/11/2023 - 18:10

    what industry are you in?

  • CowFrogHorse on 27/11/2023 - 18:40

    What exactly does company culture mean ?

    This means only one thing, they want you to work for free extra hours, weekdays and weekends because family members help each other for nothing.

    Naturally when you want time off for your home family they tell you …

    Any company that says they have. a culture is a red flag.

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